Thanksgiving Warriors
11/27/15 - We discuss the Thanksgiving we spent in an Albertson’s parking lot in Rancho Cucamonga, neighborly racism, and some podcast-on-podcast Shine Theory. Plus! A conversation with Rebecca Traister about our endless Hillary fascination.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
LINKS
white people, stop calling the cops on your neighbors.
You can find Rebecca Traister on Twitter @rtraister
TRANSCRIPT: THANKSGIVING WARRIORS
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda, personal updates -- we're still sick -- shout-out to all our Thanksgiving warriors, ugh, white people don't call the cops on your black neighbors, a Shine Theory update about women in podcasting, plus some real talk about Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.
[Theme Song]
Aminatou: Hi Ann! Are we still dying today?
Ann: Why are we both still sick? You are like diagnosed, certifiable, actual sick.
Aminatou: Yeah, because I go to the doctor, yo.
Ann: I know. My reluctance to go to the doctor is the number one thing I have in common with middle-aged, straight, white men.
Aminatou: Oh my god, you've got to go.
Ann: There used to be these bus ads in LA basically saying "Don't let your masculinity get in the way of seeing the doctor."
Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm really into mustard baths right now.
Ann: What the hell is that?
Aminatou: Oh my god, so proceed with caution because I found out that some people are allergic to mustard, like LOL, and it's bad. You just basically mess with mustard powder and you make a bath and you sit in it. It's really good.
Ann: Oh my god. Well there's been enough mustard on my skin due to aggressive sandwich eating that I'm probably not allergic.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: So I think I could try that, but you know I hate baths so . . .
Aminatou: Anything to open up my sinuses please. Okay, let's stop talking about how sick we are because it's crazy.
Ann: I know, I know. This old ladies talk.
Aminatou: Oh my god, shout out to all the Thanksgiving warriors.
Ann: Shout out to our Thanksgiving warriors!
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(1:58)
Ann: Do you want to tell the backstory to that amazing catchphrase?
Aminatou: Once upon a time, I believe in 2012, you and I took a road trip to Las Vegas from Los Angeles for Thanksgiving. We thought it would be a great idea. The execution was insane because . . .
Ann: Well I think, yeah, when we planned to do it two days prior it seemed like an awesome idea because of very cheap, nice hotel rooms.
Aminatou: Right? We got an insane, baller room at Ivanka Trump's dad's hotel -- shout out Ivanka Trump. And, yeah, I was like what could go wrong? We're going to drive there on Thanksgiving day. Here's what could go wrong: you can drink and party too much the night before and wake up very just not feeling awesome. Shout out to Molly Lambert whose party we went to the night before. It was just madness.
Ann: Also shout out to you for pouring me into a cab. I don't even remember the end of that party.
Aminatou: I know. I remember you dancing on the couch. There was like an incident with a couch and then, you know, I was like let's go.
Ann: It was a hangover issue.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, it was a hangover issue that was promptly solved by watching a lot of movies the next day. We had planned poorly in that there were no snacks at your house which was like rookie mistake. And then we get on the road very late, like I want to say around 4:00 or 5:00, and assume that we can just roll to In and Out or something and it's just a regular Thursday.
Ann: California privilege, you just think In and Out is always going to be there for you. It's not.
Aminatou: [Sighs] I'm going to say something controversial in that I don't like In and Out but we can talk about that in another show.
Ann: I'm just saying it would've been really nice while hungover on that Thanksgiving to have some In and Out.
Aminatou: Oh man, anything would've been nice. Long story short, every civilized human in America is sitting at their house so there was no food between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. [Laughs] We had to stop at some weird Albertson's in Rancho Cucamonga. Shout out to that Albertson's.
Ann: Shout out to the hot buffet at that Albertson's which was still open.
(4:00)
Aminatou: I know, which was still open but weirdly empty. So my one memory is eating a disgusting potato salad with no utensils in that parking lot.
Ann: We ate in the car with our hands like animals.
Aminatou: I know. It was really touch-and-go though, but you know, that moment brought us back. But then on the rest of the road trip we listened to this really rocking radio station and the DJ would say every once in a while "Shout out to my Thanksgiving warriors on the road," and that really carried us.
Ann: Which I have to say we did not have the kind of family, relatives, whatever, trying holiday that a lot of people have on Thanksgiving. But it is true, sometimes you've got to be a holiday warrior.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, you know, this was like all our fault.
Ann: Exactly.
Aminatou: But then it was really funny, we got to Vegas and realized we are not Vegas people in that we went to bed really early and the next day we were up too early, did all these activities. People in Vegas don't start doing shit until 11 p.m. and we were like this is not on-brand for us.
Ann: I mean it's so funny, like Vegas always seems like a better idea than it really is.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: That's how I feel about Vegas.
Aminatou: I just remember Facebook checking-in you into a Toby Keith bar.
Ann: Let me tell you, that has come back to haunt me so many times because I don't check in anywhere on Facebook and so every once in a while Facebook will be like "Check out where your friend Ann has been," and the only place that comes up is Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill in Las Vegas.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: So rude.
Aminatou: It's so funny because it's the only place I ever checked into because I think they had just rolled out that feature and I thought it was hilarious.
Ann: I know. You were like "LOL, I'm going to check you in here," and I was like I hate you right now.
Aminatou: Oh my god, that is ridiculous. But anyway, shout out to all the Thanksgiving warriors who had to endure your crazy family yesterday, to all of you who went home with a significant other and then figured out that their family is crazy too, or just had to argue about politics all day.
Ann: And also shout out to the far more pleasant Friendsgiving warriors which I don't think you even have to be a warrior at all for Friendsgiving, it's just so pleasant.
(6:00)
Aminatou: Yeah, no, I only do Friendsgiving.
Ann: Me too. Hard policy.
Aminatou: And for those of you who don't live in the United States, happy just regular Friday.
Ann: Happy Friday.
[Music]
Aminatou: What else are we going to talk about today?
Ann: As always there are some white people doing unpleasant things news.
Aminatou: Oh my god, please tell us.
Ann: Well, like in this case, some white people in Santa Monica, California which is a wealthy, coastal, little town within Los Angeles calling the cops when their lady who was a black woman was just entering her own home. 17 cops showed up? 19 cops showed up? Way, way more cops than you would expect are necessary for a burglary report showed up on this woman's doorstep.
Aminatou: Oh my god, you know, I know. I read that article and honestly even the headline just made me stop because it is one of my very real fears and I just moved into this new neighborhood and had also locked myself out and my neighbor was kind enough to let me in. And I thought about it for a couple of minutes and every once in a while I'll be taking the trash out or whatever and I'm like man, I . . . this is a fear I have now and I hate that we live in that kind of world.
Ann: Yeah. I mean and it's on a level of making a snap judgment where oh, someone with brown skin is standing around outside this person's house; must be a crime in progress. Not like maybe I should get to know my neighbors, but must be a crime. And then also the fact that the police wouldn't even apologize to her. The police were like "Well, yeah, I don't know," like kept giving different numbers of what cops were at the scene.
Aminatou: Ugh.
(8:03)
Ann: Kept saying different things about what their procedure for responding to a burglary actually is. It's just like on every level it's just . . . I know this is going to sound like it's downplaying it, but it's so disrespectful. There's no recognition that this is a human being who was made to feel unsafe in her own home.
Aminatou: Yeah, who is traumatized and is supposed to be thankful that she didn't get shot by one of the 19 cops.
Ann: Right. This is also not really a new story. It's like this happened to Henry Louis Gates like five years ago or something? How long ago was that? Ten years ago? I don't even know. It keeps happening.
Aminatou: Yeah, that was very early in the Obama administration because remember then he invited him and the cop for a beer summit.
Ann: Oh my god, the beer summit. Right.
Aminatou: Which I'm still so angry about because I'm like I'm sorry, Dr. Gates did nothing wrong. This is all on the cop.
Ann: Right, like a summit is what you have when you have two people who respectfully disagree about a situation, not what happens when someone clearly fucked up and the other person did nothing.
Aminatou: Yeah, no. It happens all the time. It is really shocking and, you know, it's also this conversation to have where obviously, yes, be a good neighbor and you shouldn't not report crimes if you see them. But I think white people don't realize the effect of policing and even reporting crime affects them differently than it affects people of color. Use your judgment in the language you have when you report this break-in or what happens because in this story apparently the neighbor was like "I see two Hispanic people, a man and a woman, breaking into this apartment." And when the cops show up they clearly see a black woman and don't care.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Don't ask for ID, violate her civil rights, and just walk into her apartment. I'm like no. We are watching too much Law & Order to not know when it's okay to enter apartments or not.
(9:52)
Ann: This article in particular was interesting because it was written first-person from the point-of-view of the woman who had to endure this dangerous and insulting situation, but so often, I mean I don't know, I feel like I'm not sure exactly what the Google Alert would look like but I'm positive this is a weekly occurrence.
Aminatou: Oh, no, it's so . . . man, another way to just be disappointed by America.
Ann: So white people, don't call the cops on your black neighbors. Simple as that.
Aminatou: Oh my god. Okay, tell me something like good news.
Ann: We have a really, really uplifting Shine Theory update.
Aminatou: Yes!
Ann: We got an email from these women who live in London who have been listening to CYG for a while and were inspired to start their own podcast called SRSLY, S-R-S-L-Y, the podcast. And so they wrote us this really lovely letter where they say "We wanted to tell you how inspired we were by your example to get on and launch the podcast we've been talking about for ages and to say thank you for being great Shine Theory role models. We are both journalists working at a political magazine in London and totally get what you were saying in episode 22 about the lack of women in podcasting and radio, and also the editor/talent gender split. It's magnified over here because the British podcasting scene is so small, it's even more obvious that there are like two women who do popular podcasts."
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And so yeah, it's very much like a pop culture podcast that takes things like Harper Lee and Downton Abbey and The Great British Bake-off and talks about it.
Aminatou: Ann, it's so good. It's so good. I've been binge-listening to it. In fact, they've completely . . . they have inspired me to listen to One Direction which is my biggest pop culture . . . it's like my biggest pop culture blind spot. Like obviously I know who all those boys are, except there's one whose name I always forget but it's okay because he's like the third hottest to me. If you've ever been in a soccer stadium I'm like this sounds like all these weirdo, anonymous chants. You can't tell anybody's voice apart but it's like still catchy.
(11:50)
Ann: I'm like actually I do know I'm beautiful. Thanks.
Aminatou: Yeah, I know. I've been listening to it and I'm like yeah, this is still trash garbage but now I know what the songs are.
Ann: And also, I don't know, I respect that these are two women who work at a political magazine who are like no, we're going to take pop culture seriously and do a podcast that's based around that as opposed to saying we have to make it a very serious political podcast to be respected.
Aminatou: Yeah! And their podcast is so smart. It's so smart. It varies in range. The other thing that I really loved about their note is they're like "We've done 18 episodes now," and I died. Thank you for saying that you're going to do something and actually sticking with it and doing it really well.
Ann: Yeah, and doing it as opposed to just saying like "Oh, I think I should . . ." and doing it once then doing another one a month later and then forgetting about it.
Aminatou: Man, endurance. It's the only way way to be a power lady.
Ann: Secret to our success. [Laughs] Doing this even when we're sick.
Aminatou: I know. I'm like I'm sorry, not everybody has this kind of stamina.
Ann: It's true. So shout out to Caroline and Anna at the SRSLY podcast. You should listen to it. Shine Theory is real. I love that you guys are doing this.
Aminatou: Yeah, you guys are the best. Thank you.
[Music]
Aminatou: Speaking of another listener question, we got one that was this really nice listener of ours asking us why we always big-up to Hillary Clinton and are dismissive of Bernie Sanders. To be fair I think we've only mentioned Bernie Sanders once on this podcast, and I will admit it was probably dismissive, LOL. Yeah, so I called up our really good friend Rebecca Traister. She's the expert on Hillary Clinton. [Laughs] So Rebecca and I talked about her book on this called Big Girls Don't Cry which . . .
Ann: Which is so good.
(14:04)
Aminatou: It's so good, and if you haven't read it I really suggest reading it now in the lead-up to this crazy primary that we're in to kind of understand the place that Hillary Clinton holds. And Rebecca I think is somebody who -- she's incredibly smart but also incredibly nuanced, right? And so she really drives home this point that progressives don't have any illusions about Hillary Clinton's politics and really acknowledges a lot of the things that are kind of problematic about her run if you're somebody like us who is really progressive: her hawkishness or how she's kind of gone the way the wind blows on big political issues. The point she makes too is having a woman at the top of the ticket has these insane ramifications for women representation in general.
[Ads]
Aminatou: Anyway, here is me talking to Rebecca. Hope you enjoy.
[Interview Starts]
(17:48)
Aminatou: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Rebecca: I'm very happy to be asked.
Aminatou: So we got this listener question which I'm going to read. "Hi Amina and Ann, I'm writing to ask politely if you might devote a few minutes of your next episode discussing why you have such unwavering support for Hillary as the Democratic nominee instead of Bernie Sanders. I totally agree that Hillary Clinton is one of the most intelligent, accomplished, and generally elegant kick-ass women alive today so no qualms there but she's also a corporately-funded career politician who does have a reputation for political flip-flopping and she's not always been the most unwavering champion for women so I'm genuinely confused as to why you both seem to so quickly write off Bernie Sanders as the best candidate for women and the candidate worth supporting, at least at this point in the campaign. You're both very well-read and politically astute women," hmm, we'll see, "so I know you're aware of Bernie Sanders' consistent pro-women record of supporting full reproductive health access and freedom, paid family leave, closing of the pay gap, etc. How is Hillary the better option here apart from actually being a woman? I won't discount the importance of this but after reading Rebecca Traister's Big Girls Don't Cry," and she links to another Harper's article, "I'm really curious to understand how she has your full support for president." Man, a lot to unpack here.
Rebecca: Yeah, there's a lot going on in that letter. It's a really smart, really interesting letter.
Aminatou: Well what are your initial thoughts?
Rebecca: I have so many initial thoughts. The first is that I would certainly say as someone who's done a lot of writing about Hillary Clinton, and the book that she mentions in that letter is one that I wrote about starting the 2008 campaign actually as a John Edwards supporter probably for some of the same reasons that she likes Bernie Sanders which is that his policy ideas are much closer to mine. I'm a pretty left-leaning person.
(19:45)
And so in 2008 given the choice in the beginning between John Edwards who actually, in part because he was a white guy and therefore a little less immediately threatening than either the white woman or the African-American man who were his competitors, he actually was able to put together a really progressive platform. I started out supporting him. And then by the end for a variety of complicated reasons I sort of had become a pretty strong Hillary supporter, though always with reservations and qualms and all that. But I took her loss very hard. I was also thrilled to vote for Barack Obama.
I have a lot of feelings about Hillary Clinton and her current bid for the presidency and I'm again covering it as a journalist this round. Starting from there I would say that I certainly see the case for voting for Bernie Sanders. I love Bernie. I think it's totally cool to love Bernie. Many of the people closest to me plan to vote for Bernie. It would be totally conceivable that I would vote for Bernie.
That said, and she actually gets to the heart of what she's talking about, is is there a feminist argument or a progressive argument for supporting Hillary Clinton besides for the fact that she's a woman? Now I want to return to this argument concerning the fact that she is a woman and this is presidentially and progressively important, but I do want to say that if you are a progressive, even one whose ideas align with Bernie Sanders, A) it's great if you vote for Bernie Sanders, but B) there is still a really solid progressive argument for supporting Hillary Clinton.
For those of us who have really progressive ideas and agreements with Bernie Sanders about economic policy I think there is still a really valid argument for nonetheless supporting Hillary Clinton because when we do -- when we talk about the policies that we like and we believe in and the way we believe the country should work, depending on the context that we're talking about, there's sort of different applications of our policy beliefs. And when it comes to presidential politics and the calculus that each of us does individually about which candidate we're going to support there are actually a bunch of factors at play that go beyond pure policy agreement, right?
Aminatou: Yes.
(21:55)
Rebecca: And so if you are somebody who cares very deeply about social programs, about affordable healthcare, about raising the minimum wage, about keeping economic safety nets in place for Americans who need them, and if I had my way for many more Americans than currently exist, it is very possible to have done a presidential calculus in which you determine that actually Hillary Clinton may be wildly more electable for a bunch of reasons including the fact that she's a little bit more centrist than Bernie and that therefore taking a bet on her . . . and it's not just like oh, better than the Republicans. It's actually like wait, maybe this person is better-positioned to win an election and then if she wins to navigate Republican obstruction competently and confidently.
And that's an evaluation that's not just about where she's standing on these issues, and I understand the stress about, you know, that she's not standing as far to the left as Bernie is. But it's really about we have a pretty broken system right now and a preference for Bernie's positions isn't really going to translate into those positions being enacted. Even if you believe that Bernie is electable, and I have heard and respect the argument that he is -- lots of people think that he would raise the base if he became the candidate, right?
Aminatou: Yes.
Rebecca: And that might be the case. But if you think he's electable then there's the question of how is a Republican-led Congress going to respond to his ideas? And I don't think we're in a universe right now where we can safely assume that because Bernie favors the $15 minimum wage and expansion of social programs, single-payer healthcare, free college, that any of those things are going to happen in the face of a total obstructionist, Republican-led house and possibly, probably Senate, right?
Aminatou: Yeah.
(23:55)
Rebecca: Then there are a whole bunch of other factors, for example how do you feel about them on foreign policy? One of my biggest qualms about Hillary Clinton is her hawkishness, right? However I have qualms about Bernie Sanders on foreign policy. To me he's rather a large blank. That is also a factor that comes both into questions of electability and the ability to do the job.
So she wrote in her note -- and I thought this was really interesting -- that questioning why somebody would support a corporately-funded career politician -- Hillary -- over Bernie Sanders . . . pretty much, everybody, Bernie's a real exception. He is by the way a career politician mostly.
Aminatou: Right, it's like what other job has Bernie Sanders had? This is what he's been doing for the last . . .
Rebecca: Yes, he's a career politician. He is not corporately-funded in that Wall Street doesn't support him, which is a good thing except if you want to raise money. Pretty much anybody who's going to be positioned plausibly to make a real go at the presidency is going to be a career politician at this point. I mean on the Republican side we see Donald Trump and Ben Carson are not career politicians but right now that's what we're looking at for the Democrats. And, you know, we may not like the system but I do think there's an argument to be made for experience within it. There are reasonable fears that somebody who comes from completely outside the system would be blindsided by the challenges put in front of a president. Also we are looking at a post-Citizens United universe in which, sad to say, needing to raise a sort of shocking amount of money is absolutely key to winning elections when you're basically running against the Koch Brothers. That does not justify or excuse or allay fears about the fact that Hillary has in fact taken money from Wall Street banks but that's going to be true of most politicians who are going to be in the position of running for the presidency. I understand that that's part of what could make Bernie so appealing but Bernie still is not . . . you know, he doesn't have the money. He doesn't have the campaign apparatus. I'm not yet convinced that he is actually presidentially really plausible.
(26:08)
Aminatou: I love that you brought up Hillary's centrism because I think that no progressive person has any kind of illusions about her politics, right? You've written a lot about this. You had that fantastic piece in Elle recently. She's a centrist Democrat with a very long and very public record as being that, and so I think that it's always interesting to me when people point to that as the problem whereas . . .
Rebecca: Right.
Aminatou: You know, if you're somebody who kind of has your eye on the prize . . . do I think that Bernie Sanders can be president? Absolutely. Do I think that he'll be an effective president? Now that's a different story.
Rebecca: Right, it is a different story. Hillary couldn't have been an outside-the-system politician. Now, fine. You might say great, then we don't want her, right? But we have had, with only one exception, all white male presidents right? That's our vision. And that doesn't just mean -- it's not like oh, roll your eyes. "Yeah, I know. I know. It's only been guys," right? No, that actually is American leadership has been white and it's been male. It is a real disruption, I mean if you look at the racism that has been unleashed during the last seven years during which Barack Obama's been in the White House, we are really discomforted by leaders who are not white and not male.
The idea that one of them -- the first one -- could have had the kind of career that Bernie Sanders has had, that a woman, Democratic socialist . . . like she wouldn't have gotten within a thousand miles of the Senate, okay? [Laughs]
Aminatou: No, exactly.
Rebecca: Let alone the White House.
Aminatou: It's the ultimate fairy tale. There's no female equivalent of Bernie Sanders because our politics won't allow it and our society won't allow it.
(27:50)
Rebecca: Right. Like the great progressive women in the house like Barbara Lee is not running for president. Now people will point to Elizabeth Warren and there is definitely an argument because she is certainly economically progressive and lots of people would like her to run for president, but she didn't.
Aminatou: Yep.
Rebecca: I mean in part because there are other things where she has blanks too including foreign policy. Also because maybe she doesn't want to be president which is a very comprehensible human feeling and one that I like her more for. I also do not want to be president. I generally like people who do not want to be president, right? Like I look for that in a human being. However having presidential ambition is actually necessary if you want to be president.
When you look at the choices Hillary Clinton has made, and again not just the [0:28:38] of them but we need to think about the context in which they were made. Hillary Clinton entered the national spotlight as a really disruptive figure who was really considered a serious feminist even though she hadn't really been formed exactly by the feminist movement. She was considered very left-wing, basically accorded total full femonazi status and right up until the point she went to the Senate, I mean she was reviled and still is obviously by the right. Reviled. When she went to the Senate there were Republican senators who sort of predicted she was going to get struck by lightning.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Rebecca: They could not believe this woman actually going to enter the Senate where they worked. And one of the things that she did that was both grossest and savviest in terms of building her own career and moving closer to the presidency -- and again, it's so reflexive for us to think like oh, she did all this stuff just so she could become president. That's what all presidential candidates do, right?
Aminatou: [Laughs] Exactly.
Rebecca: Like for guys that's how life works, right? That's like being a politician, because it's so much more common for the John Kerrys of the world, the Al Gores of the world, the Bill Clintons of the world, right? We don't think it's weird when they strategize in order to get more power. That's how men are supposed to . . .
(29:55)
Aminatou: Exactly, right? It's like everybody says she's so ambitious and I'm like how else are you supposed to be president?
Rebecca: Right, you don't just bubble up to the presidency. It's not like somebody recognizes you as a really good team player and suggests you should be president.
Aminatou: Right, or we have a lottery for who we elect to president.
Rebecca: Exactly.
Aminatou: It's like no, actually you have to say that you want it and you have to say that that's what you want to do. Of course everybody's strategizing, but again through the lens of gender it makes her look like this maniacal, kind of conniving woman whereas for everybody else it's a natural instinct to want to be a leader.
Rebecca: Right, because the whole business of political leadership in this country has been so male for so long. We don't have a parliamentary system. We don't have quotas. We don't have gender parity in our politics.
Aminatou: A thing that a lot of people don't even realize is in even very gender-conservative countries like Pakistan and Ireland and the Philippines and Liberia you've had over 70 women who've been chosen as heads of states before and in the United States it's a complete anomaly.
Rebecca: Right. The other thing about Hillary this cycle that is better than last cycle is that she has been pushed left, in large part by Bernie Sanders, but also I think even without Bernie's threat being as big as it is she was already moving left because one of the criticisms of Hillary has always been that she moves the way the wind blows, right? Which is also part of political strategizing. I never think -- I mean I think it's terrible when the wind is blowing right and she's moved right. That's when I've been angriest at her, you know? When she's running around saying that abortion is a tragic thing. That is when I have been most critical of Hillary, so maybe I only view this as a good thing in this context where she seems to have moved left. But I think in part it's sometimes a politician's job to reflect the change in priorities of the electorate, you know?
(31:40)
So the idea that she's moved left to me is not a ding against her. I'm relieved by it. We have a lot of political science that tells us that candidates do actually have to follow-through on a decent amount or a pretty fair number of the promises that they make on a campaign trail. It's not just air, right, when they start making promises when they're campaigning. And so the policies she's putting forth now are way better than what we were seeing from any candidate in 2008 really.
Aminatou: And she's running a very unapologetic feminist platform right now which is not something that she did in '08, you know?
Rebecca: Absolutely not.
Aminatou: I think that she has fully embraced that. I think another thing that a lot of people miss is even Bernie recognizes she's the best candidate for the job, you know?
Rebecca: [Laughs]
Aminatou: And he's said that before. It's so fascinating to watch them against the backdrop of the Paris attacks and the debate going into this foreign policy direction. Of all of the three people on that stage, including Martin O'Malley, she's the only one you want to be your president during that kind of crisis, you know?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Aminatou: And I think that, you know, Bernie Sanders makes all of these . . . he's going to make all of these stirring speeches and he's pushing her more to talk about inequality; he's pushing her to talk more about poverty and about campaign reform. But, you know, at the end of the day if she wins the primary over him he will heartily endorse her. That's how politics work.
Rebecca: Right. And the other thing is I think she's pushing him to some degree, right? The fact that they're in competition is good for everybody. So she's pushed him on guns which is a real progressive failing on his part, right? There's this . . .
Aminatou: Yes, huge progressive failing.
Rebecca: People who support Hillary, despite some of her economic policy shortcomings, are very regularly written out as sell-out contortionists like her, right? But Bernie's followers do their own contortions around gun control which is a massive progressive issue. She's pushing him, and he in the last debate, he actually seemed to soften on some of the gun control stuff. He'd been pretty reluctant to walk any of that stuff back and she was really getting to him in the last debate so she's doing this stuff for him too. I know that it feels really rancorous right now because if you are a Bernie supporter, especially if you're a really devoted Bernie supporter or a really devoted Hillary supporter, you might be mad at people who disagree with you. That's part of how politics works.
(34:00)
But this is in many ways one of the finer -- maybe it's just I'm so happy because they're both left, right? Right now. But this is kind of, for me, an ideal scenario. Like you have two really smart, really great progressive candidates who are pushing each other to be better. I think this is the way politics is supposed to work in its best form. Would that we had a Congress and a Supreme Court -- would that the other branches of government were in such good shape or that the other party was having this level of conversation about its future and its direction.
So even though I understand that when you're in the midst of it it can feel really bitter and angry I actually think this is kind of a happy time for the Democratic Party when it comes to presidential politics. Maybe I'm just crazy and nave about that.
Aminatou: No, you're not crazy at all. You know, I think it's interesting that you bring in the supporters because there's been so much talk about the Bernie bros and the Hillary bots. And it's so fascinating to me too that people have such short memories about this stuff. I remember in '08 Bill Clinton saying some insane things about Obama and that is still very hurtful to me. Joe Biden, you know, also said some borderline racist things about Obama.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Aminatou: And Obama's . . .
Rebecca: And Hillary said some stuff too, you know?
Aminatou: Yeah, Hillary said some stuff too. But even, you know . . .
Rebecca: Hillary did not acquit herself beautifully when it came to race in '08.
Aminatou: Oh, not at all. But, you know, even I remember Obama's "You're likable enough" Hillary comment how I felt that that was so gender-problematic at the time. And I think people forget this is politics. People do play games, people are strategic, and people are . . . it gets nasty.
Rebecca: Right.
Aminatou: But, you know, that's the framework that we have to play within. You know, another thing I wanted to bring up about kind of the symbolism of having a woman president, I think it was you that pointed me in this direction about some of this polling that shows that having a woman at the top of the ticket and candidate is going to have major repercussions kind of down-ticket too.
Rebecca: Yes.
(35:55)
Aminatou: And I think that that's something that not a lot of people consider right now.
Rebecca: Well this is a major -- and I'm sorry actually I didn't bring this up when I was talking about the other kinds of factors that go into questions of presidential calculus because this probably actually looms larger for me than almost anything else. There is, at least, a theoretical argument that having Hillary at the top of the ticket would dramatically increase turnout amongst Democrats and amongst the base which would have in turn an impact on state and local elections and also on other female candidates. And here's where that's important, because if you're talking about where in, for example in Congress, the most economically and racially diverse caucus is Democratic women. So when you're looking at ballots this year you are probably going to see more women and a more diverse group of Democratic women on ballots because they're hoping for a bump from Hillary. They're hoping this is going to have an impact of drawing more voters and voters who have an interest in seeing more women elected, voters who are going to vote Democratic.
And so it's actually one of those rare opportunities because we know that white maleness is not a problem just in the executive branch; it's also a problem in Congress. You know, we've only ever had one in the history of the United States, one African-American woman senator, Carol Moseley Braun. She was elected 20 years ago.
Aminatou: That's so crazy.
Rebecca: It's insane. There's only one other woman of color who's ever been in the Senate. This year, depending on how Donna Edwards does in her primary we could have two women -- two black women running for Senate seats, Kamala Harris in California and Donna Edwards in Maryland. It is not an accident that the seats they're running to replace, Barbara Boxer and Barbara Mikulski, that those two Senate veterans retired during this cycle because I think it's -- I mean I'm guessing here, but I think it's probably right, they saw this as an opportunity that if you have a woman at the top of the presidential ticket that there was a better chance at getting a woman to keep their seat. And, you know, in this case we have two women of color who are likely to be in competition for those seats. That would -- I mean imagine those two women getting elected, just two of them, would triple the number of black women who've ever served in the United States Senate.
Aminatou: Insane.
(38:15)
Rebecca: There are also a ton of -- a ton, you know, at least five -- Latina women running for House seats. They come from immigrant backgrounds, working class backgrounds. This is exactly the kind of representation that we lack in the United States. Those women would also quite likely benefit from having Hillary Clinton at the top of the ticket.
So there are these structural arguments that are also very crucial when you're talking about presidential politics because it goes way beyond -- especially in a realm in which the president's policy beliefs, of course they're important, but they're not going to easily be brought to fruition with an obstructionist Congress. The only presidential belief that will easily be brought to fruition is Republican ones if a Republican winds up in office with a cooperative Congress.
Aminatou: That's a lot of stuff to even think about there. If you could just tell all the feminists in the land to keep some hope this election season, what's one thing you want to leave them with?
Rebecca: The thing I would say to feminist women and men who are invested in progressive and feminist politics is don't stop considering these issues. Whoever you wind up supporting, whatever choices you make around your votes, your money, your conversations with relatives, don't forget that we are living in a country in which massive portions of our population have not been reflected in our representative government. And that doesn't mean like oh, that means you have to support the woman or whatever. If you're a Bernie Sanders supporter think about this, right? Think about how none of these options just happened.
(40:05)
Hillary didn't just become Hillary. Bernie didn't just become Bernie. Our Congress didn't just happen to be 80% male. We are living as we make our political choices, we do so in a structure that is heavily weighted against women and people of color and our government does not look like the population it represents. And so through all the choices that you make keep in mind that you're working in a rigged system and that that has all kinds of symptoms and that that rigged system shows itself in a million different complicated ways and these choices are not simple. And try to keep nuance in your thinking. That's actually my only plea to feminists. Let's be nuanced. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right, let's everyone . . .
Rebecca: I would not be a good presidential candidate. [Laughs]
Aminatou: [Laughs] God, I hope you run for president one day.
Rebecca: Never.
Aminatou: Or at least one of your daughters does. I'm going to keep fingers and toes crossed we get a Traister in the White House one day. It's going to be perfect. Thank you so, so, so much for joining us today Rebecca.
Rebecca: Thank you for inviting me.
Aminatou: Obviously we love you and we think that you are the smartest so you just made our day. Thank you.
Rebecca: Oh, thank you for having me. I love you guys and I think you guys are the smartest. That was all mutual appreciation.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: That was great. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right? It's like who -- man, Rebecca Traister. Just the smartest lady about everything.
Ann: Smartest woman on the Internet. So good. So good. Well, and I think for me just in terms of -- to go back to that listener question about what we do and don't talk about, to be totally honest I'm just so much more interested in Hillary and how people respond to her and how the arc of her career and how she's positioned herself and how people have reacted to her . . . there's just so much more interesting stuff for us to talk about regarding that than there is for us to talk about when it comes to Bernie. I'm just like totally frankly, nothing against Bernie, agree with him on the vast majority of things, just not that interested.
(42:05)
Aminatou: No, true. And also even for me who, you know, is a super Hillary fan, my politics are much closer-aligned to Bernie's politics, so there's that. Oh man, Ann, I also watched the new Makers documentary on the 20th anniversary of the Beijing Women's Conference. And typical Makers documentary if you've watched them, they're all kind of the same, but this one you need to see just for the archival footage. 1995 was an incredible hair year for Hillary Clinton. Just bomb dot com.
Ann: Power. Power bob years.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's so good. But also just hearing about all of these feminists from around the world coming to Beijing in '95 when there's no Internet and you're supposed to plan a conference with 40,000 women, like how that happened, it's just completely insane and mind-blowing to me. And you'll recognize a lot of people from the documentary and see their trajectory. There's something to be said about that, right? It's like this is what happens when progressive women play a long game. A lot of the women in that documentary, like 20 years ago, not super famous besides Hillary Clinton who was first lady. But now some of them are presidents of their own countries, bleeding huge world institutions. So I really recommend watching that. I think it's on PBS right now, or it's definitely streaming on Amazon.
Ann: Awesome.
Aminatou: Just watch it for the footage. You will die, it's so good. Okay, I think this is as far as my body will take me this week.
Ann: We've pushed it to the edge.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: We're all still digesting our gluttonous eating/family drama from yesterday so yeah. All right, you can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download our show on the Acast app, or on iTunes where it would be awesome if you left us a review. You can also tweet at us at @callyrgf or email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. And you can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
Aminatou: Gina!
Ann: Gina!
Aminatou: [Laughs] See you on the Internet, boo!
Ann: See you on the Internet.