Summer of Friendship: Claire and Erica
7/9/21 - As part of our Summer of Friendship series, a few of our favorite podcasters tell us how they met, times their friendship has been stretched, and how their off-air an on-air friendship is different. This week, iconic bestie entrepreneurs Claire Mazur and Erica Cerulo of A Thing or Two.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
Check out Claire Mazur and Erica Cerulo’s podcast A Thing or Two
Big Friendship is available from Bookshop.org | Indiebound | B&N | Amazon | BAM | Target | Signed copies available at Books Are Magic | McNally Jackson | The Strand
TRANSCRIPT: SUMMER OF FRIENDSHIP: CLAIRE AND ERICA
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: She's Ann Friedman.
Ann: She is Aminatou Sow.
Aminatou: And we're back today. It's so fun to be back.
Ann: We are back. And, um, let me tell you the joy of saying like, we are not going to talk about ourselves today. We are going to let other people talk about their friendship. The joy is real. Um, this is yet another episode in our Summer of Friendship series, where we are hearing from other pairs of friends who happened to be podcasters about the events that have shaped their friendship, the stories they tell together like about that friendship and the times that they have been challenged as friends.
[theme song]
Aminatou: Man, I'm so sick of talking about us and I never tire of hearing other people tell their friendship story. So, you know, selfishly it's checking all the boxes for me, but, um, everyone that we have on these on the series are total pros and are also just like the loveliest humans.
Ann: Amazing. Who are we hearing from today?
Aminatou: Well, um, you're in for a treat because today's episode is a very special, um, Claire and Erica of A thing or Two are here and, um, one, we love them a lot and they have been such inspirations for us in both like, you know, friends who do business, but also just like boss, ladies who do business. And, uh, it's even though I know this story, I never get tired of hearing them say it because it has such good flourishes.
Ann: So good, Claire and Erica also wrote this book, Work Wife, about working with friends. And so I'm really interested in hearing them talk about the contours of friendship versus collaboration and um, yeah, here they are.
[interview begins]
Claire: Hi, I'm Claire Mazur.
Erica: Hi, I'm Erica Cerulo.
Claire: And we are the hosts of A Thing or Two podcast.
Erica: Oh my gosh. We so are.
Claire: We really are, we've been doing this, we've been doing this podcast in some incarnations since like 2014. Does that sound right? That's right.
Erica: I think that's right. And it's companion newsletter since like 2012.
Claire: Yeah, that's right. Anyway. Anyway, we talk about a lot of stuff. We talk about shopping. We talk about friendship, for sure. Life stuff, discoveries. We're excited about all sorts of nonsense.
Erica: And this, I think the timelines and we didn't get into that was obviously incredibly relevant to what we're doing right now, which is, we've been friends since 2006.
Claire: No, 2002.
Erica: Oh God. Wow. Yeah. 2006 is when you graduated college.
Claire: Was when I graduated from college.
Erica: I don't know why that's the relevant number that stuck out in my head.
Claire: 2002 is when I graduated from high school and started college and met you on the campus of University of Chicago.
Erica: Yeah.
Claire: Um, which I don't, I, I don't remember like the very, very first meeting, but I remember being aware of you before our first formal meeting. Do you remember your first time seeing me?
Erica: Well, I remember the first time seeing you. So the first time I saw you, I was having a very ill-advised lunch with an ex-boyfriend. Um, Brian, because I know you're like gonna ask.
Claire: Oh, you just saw the wheels turning and he was like, you saw me, you saw me process. No, I'm not going to say his name out loud.
Erica: [laughter] I did see all of that. All of it.
Claire: Because who knows who's listening.
Erica: Who knows? I feel like first name, you know how many Brians there are? I think plenty. Yeah. Um, and I was having an ill-advised lunch with him meeting--
Claire: In the nice dining hall?
Erica: In the nice dining hall meeting him outside of the nice dining hall and the mini quad there. And you walked out of your dorm, which was the like fancy new dorm that I had lived in the year before. And you had running gear on and were like pulling your hair up into a big, like bun ponytail situation on the top of your head.
Claire: Hilarious that I had running gear on because I was not a runner. And I embarked on like at best, a three week long effort to be a runner my first semester in college.
Erica: Like new college, new you?
Claire: Yes, exactly. And I remember like lots of people seeing me and commenting on it and thinking I was a runner. And it's just funny because anybody listening would be like, oh, of course it makes sense that Erica, the first time Erica saw Claire, she was running because now I am a really big runner, but you really caught me on one of like, I don't know, five runs.
Erica: I partially clocked it because I was at that point a runner and I'm not anymore, but was like, oh, like okay. Cause that was pretty like a fairly rare on the University of Chicago campus. Um, and also I clocked it cause you had great hair, um, just like really excellent hair. So that was like my first, like who is this person moment. And then you started dating this dude, um, who…
Claire: We can say, we can call him Mike.
Erica: We can call Mike, um, who is this too much of an identifying feature who wore cargo or carpenter, carpenter jean, carpenter, jeans, shorts? They were like cargo jeans, they were jeans, but I think they were also cargo. Yeah.
Claire: They were like cargo jean pants. They were, they were not good.
Erica: No, no, no. That wasn't what you liked about him. Um, but then I—
Claire: He was on the basketball team and your ex was also on the basketball team?
Erica: Yeah. Okay. Like really God, these details sounds so trite. [laughter]
Claire: Um, but you know, it meant our social circles were starting to like overlap.
Erica: Yeah. So I remember like seeing you at a party or two parties at, uh, uh, your boyfriend's house who lived with a friend of mine, um, another Mike, a different, somehow a different Mike. Maybe and like we maybe like exchanged hellos or like, I don't know, maybe we're introduced to each other, like in a passing way. And then I remember you saw me the next, we saw each other the next day or whatever on the quad and passed. And you were like, oh, hi, like in greeting, which again was something that didn't happen at the University of Chicago because people were real nose to the sidewalk when they're walking around campus.
Claire: Right. Because UofC has a reputation for being like just socially awkward. They sell shirts at the bookstore that say where fun comes to die. So there was, I always said while I was there, that it was like, I didn't know how big the entire student body was, but the size of the student body that was actively social felt like the size of my high school. So at first year high school.
Erica: Yes yes, that feels exactly right.
Claire: Then we had this like mutual frenemy, we say.
Erica: Yes, mutual frenemy.
Claire: Who's credited in the acknowledgements of our book Work Wife.
Erica: Yes.
Claire: Because we wouldn't, we, none of this would have happened without him, I suppose.
Erica: Honestly it probably, I mean, honestly it probably would have, but he really was so intentional about it that I do think he, like, he explicitly set up a friend date, which I think deserves a good amount of credit. Like this was someone who had lived in my dorm basically like lived in our dorms, um, my, in my freshman year and your sophomore year. And he was just a real like character, like in the way that coming from the Midwest and Illinois, I didn't really know existed. Like he went to Sidwell Friends in DC, um, and just like was very worldly. He called Illinois a flyover state, even though he was physically there and like going to school there and just like had a real like attitude about him.
Claire: He was really intentionally provocative. And like now, now having a sense too, his dad was like Pulitzer prize winning journalist. And I think was like a war reporter maybe. Is that right?
Erica: Yeah.
Claire: Either way. Now, having more of a sense of the media landscape, like everything about his upbringing in the way it would have informed his personality makes a lot more sense. Um, of like the sort of like type that he was, uh, emulating, I suppose.
Erica: I just didn't know it was a type at the time.
Claire: I mean, yeah, I had encountered ones like him before, but so he, he, you and he had been in the same dorm, you'd been friends before and then he and I were in the same dorm. Um, and he rightly was like, you two should meet. And I think that things on a really superficial level that he probably identified in us that, that like, he was like, oh, these two would like each other is that we were like interested in design and fashion and pop culture, but also academically minded and also kind of didn't put up with his shit. Um, yeah. And I didn't mind didn't mind being poked and could stand up to it. And we would push back on stuff and like, didn't mind getting into an argument.
Erica: Which is something that he just like respected in his friends in general. Like that was a quality he sought for sure.
Claire: For sure. So then we were set up on this lunch date in that same cafeteria, the same fancy cafeteria. And I don't know why I have, like, one of my, like, just very visual memories from that is standing at the checkout line with you. Like, I can picture that. I don't know why, like, I can't picture a lot of other stuff, but I it's like, that's a snapshot that is a snapshot in my head standing behind you as we checked out. And like, I think you were wearing a pale pink shirt, but that might, I might just be conflating that with the fact that the only colors you wore in college, you had a strict role, pink, black, and white. Right. That was it. Gray?
Erica: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Colors between black and white were fine. So, you know, a pale gray, a charcoal totally fine. And pink. Um, yeah.
Claire: And that was definitely one of the first things. I mean, in general, I was attracted to the fact that you were interested in fashion, you liked fashion and you, I think beyond that had like a general curiosity and a knowingness about things like we had similar references that felt really specific and not common. And I think this was pre like this version of the internet and in this version of the internet, everybody has the same references, but then it was like the fact that you knew fashion brands that weren't just sold at, you know, wherever everybody was showing them all.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah.
Claire: It felt like, oh, we have this thing in common and nobody else does. And I was super interested in this in the fact that you had made this rule for yourself about the pink, black, and white, like I wanted to ask a million questions about it and was just like, and respected it for sure.
Erica: One of them, one of the early stories that you told me that I remember just feeling like, oh, wow, this is like, okay, this, I like this. I am into this. I'm into the, like, just like exuberantly, throwing your stuff. They were self at things was telling me that on road trips, you and your brother in the back of the car would play a game, a game, um, where you would go through fashion magazines and like cover the name, the credits and identify who the models were.
Claire: Who the designers were dis, excuse me, identify who the designers were. I haven't brought this up--
Erica: And your brother was good enough at this to compete.
Claire: Because I need to bring this up with my brother and see how much he remembers about it, because my mom would drag us shopping everywhere. My mom was really into fashion too, which was where I got the references from. But yeah, he would be really good at it. And so we'd be like, I think that's Armani, like that's Calvin Klein. It's insane. Now that I think about it. And it's insane to me that my brother who was not like deeply interested in the same way.
Erica: But he was exposed.
Claire: He was exposed and he has a really good memory.
Erica: He is a historian.
Claire: Uh, yeah, he is a historian. [laughter] So he's, it's true.
Erica: Um, I also, I mean, I think I, I recognized very early on that, you know, you like the, these fashion references, yes. And that you were also just like very cosmopolitan, but in a different way than our other mutual friend was. Um, and as someone who was not at all, I was like very attracted to that.
Claire: It's funny because I didn't, I thought of you as someone who was like, and you still are this way, who was like very proactive about seeking it out. Like, I felt like we were the same. I mean, I'd grown up in Wilmington, Delaware, and like, granted, it was like on a coast and I'd spent a lot of time in New York, but I felt like we had both had the same experience of like, just really loving magazines and being early to the internet and just seeking this stuff out because it wasn't just automatically around us.
Erica: That's right. I think that's right. We both lived in small towns that were like two to three hours from a big city and knew that we wanted to be in the big city more than we wanted to be in the small town.
Claire: Yeah, for sure. And then we also both loved Sanrio and, and knew, knew that there was something like fashion about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't just being ironic or like--
Erica: It was not ironic at all. My affection for Sanrio has never been ironic. And I don't feel like yours has either.
Claire: No, I don't think it also wasn't like, like a rave kid phase or something like the wait, you know what I mean? Like rave kids would carry lunch boxes and like, and fetishize like cartoon characters. We were like, no Sanrio is design.
Erica: Is good design, good design and it's ageless and timeless.
Claire:That's right. In fact, I just like found a note you wrote me on Sanrio stationary from like, I dunno, probably 2006, like floating around my house.
Erica: I mean there's still Sanrio stationery in my apartment.
Claire: Yeah. Same, same. Why wouldn't there be, um, there's this really good question. Um, the list of like conversation prompts about what something you get from this friendship that you don't get from any other, which is funny, because I think I have always felt that our relationship, our friendship is extremely distinct. And even before we started Of a kind and like, when we started Of a kind, I was very aware of the fact that there is nobody else that I could have started a business with that, well, period. But especially that I'm friends with, because you always get that question of like, you're really starting a business with a friend and like, that's so crazy and how is it gonna work? And I would always be like, I totally get it. It's just that this one friendship, it makes sense for. And I think part of it is that our friendship has always been, there's like an intellectual and academic sameness is my best way of thinking about it. Yeah. Which I sort of speaks to that idea of like, yes, like we had the same interests in fashion and we didn't immediately deep dive into like, this boy broke my heart and that's what we're bonding over. Like we both, like our initial bonding and like the basis of our friendship was really interest based. Yeah. And I think that that's not as common in a lot of my friendships and it's not as common, maybe in female friendships in general, because I think a lot of female friendships are just like more emotional.
Erica: And it wasn't that we were like thrown into a situation together. And like, it wasn't like we sat next to each other in a class and worked together on a project or something. I don't know. We, it does feel like in some ways we really chose it.
Claire: Yeah. Oh, we definitely didn't. We've never, we much now have much more of like a networked friendship where like, we have so much mutual friend overlap, but that really wasn't until we started Of a kind and that started to happen more naturally. But back then we liked each other as friends. We knew each other as friends, we'd see each other at the same parties, but we were like our own little, like we were a duo. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we were also not like BFF inseparable, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't that it was just like, this is my friend.
Erica: [laughter] It was just like, this is my friend. I also think that like something over time that I think has become so core to our relationship and this sense that, like, why just, I just could never, would never have any other relationship like this, is just the like proximity that we've had to each other for such a long time and spending like so much time together. And also I think the empathic way that we try to approach each other's lives. Um, and there has just been such like god deep sharing. Oh my gosh, over the last, you know, 12 years, at least, um, of just seeing each other every day more or less.
Claire: Everyday and being exposed to every part of each other's lives. Somebody asked me the other day, they were like, is it healthy? Like how does that like, is it actually a healthy relationship? And I was like, yeah, no, I really, it is. It was like, I tried to think of how to explain it. I was like, it's really like sibling, like, I guess, um, like is the best way to try to describe it. We just like know each other so well, and of course we get annoyed with each other, but like it's it's become familial at this point. I still have a hard time articulating, like.
Erica: It was like, god, my relationships with my brothers aren't like this, so I'm not sure.
Claire: Right. No.
Erica: I mean and neither of us had sisters to like, be able to gauge that against. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Claire: I think that, I think that now our relationship is different because we've had, like you said, like this level of intimacy that is like hard to describe, but if I like may, like when we started Of a kind, like, we were such close friends, I saw you all the time. There was like, you were absolutely one of my closest friends, but there was still stuff like, we weren't like diving into it about each other's sex lives in the way we know now. Yeah. It's like once you spend this much time together, but it just, it wasn't the sort of like, it wasn't like a raw friendship. It was like a very, um, like, uh, cerebral in some way, maybe friendship. Like I, like, I just think we had the same interests. We would like do these activities together. Um, and we were super close and super there for each other emotionally, but it's like more transformed into this one that feels like really like, uh, all, all in.
Erica: Well, I think there was like less need for vulnerability before.
Claire: Vulnerability. Okay.
Erica: Does that make sense?
Claire: Yes. I think the vulnerability is a big part and I mean, certainly if I can think back on these were like turning points in our relationship. And I think probably all of them are moments where we were super vulnerable with each other in a way that we like hadn't been or weren't with other people.
Erica: And what were the moments for you?
Claire: There's like a couple that I can think of. Um, okay. Two that like really speak to vulnerability in that felt new in a way, one, when you showed up at my shitty apartment, like more or less unannounced, like maybe you texted me like are you home?
Erica: No, I think I called and I was crying. Like I think it was like, I think it was like maybe, yeah, I was leaving a bar and I called and I was crying and I was like two blocks from your apartment. And I was like, are you home?
Claire: Yeah. Yeah. And you came over and cried in my bed about a boy. And I think there were two things that like really surprised me about that. And I remember like talking to you and actively registering the surprise and having to be like, you're going to have to process the surprise later because she needs you to just like, be a good friend right now. So like, try to like, just compartmentalize that the two things that surprised me were, or like were one that you like A, could be hurt by a boy, which I know is crazy, but you were always just so composed and confident.
Erica: I don’t feel like that at all. [laughter]
Claire: Oh my god, like, I just always felt like you, I mean, I knew that there were like, you'd had your share of boy problems, but this felt like, it always felt like you had been, so, I mean, this is the wrong word, but like adult about it, where you were like, well, that didn't work or that sucks. Or he was a jerk or whatever, and I'm moving on. And the right thing to do is to just like, forget about him forever. And this was a moment where you were admitting like defeat in some ways.
Erica: Totally.
Claire: Like, and that it was really hurting you. And then the other was like, I, I don't know if it was surprised, but like, felt so privileged that it was me who you decided to come to about it. And I was just like, wow. So that was one.
Erica: Really?
Claire: Yeah. I don't know. I was just like, oh, like I, you know why? Because I was always such a mess. So I would say another thing--
Erica: You were like, your room was a mess, but you yourself weren’t in a mess.
Claire: But emotionally, I was a mess. So like, who was I to give you advice about boys?
Erica: You weren't emotional, you weren't emotionally a mess.
Claire: Well, the thing, I can't remember the chronology of this, but another sort of like turning point in our relationship that at the time felt totally normal to me, but I look back on and I'm like, that's pretty remarkable is you spent a summer abroad and, or a quarter abroad in Barcelona.
Erica: Yeah.
Claire: And we would send the most epic emails back and forth. And I can't actually remember if you sent the most epic emails, but I know that I would just emotionally--
Erica: Oh, I definitely did.
Claire: I would just emotionally dump on you about this guy that was breaking my heart at the time all the time. And you would write back really thoughtful responses. And at the time it was like, of course, she's my friend. She would do this, but now I look back and I'm like the like, um, accountability that, that you felt to me to like address my boy problems over long emails while you were abroad, like doing your own thing was so generous.
Erica: Claire, that's like such a kind framing of it. I definitely was dumping emails back. And I had a Blackberry that I remember I had like an early, early Blackberry, which like why, but I did. And I would just like lay there in bed, study abroad. And like with my thumbs type out, just these like long missives, um…
Claire: And to this day, you will do more communicating on a, like on an actual phone with your thumbs than I ever would. And I always attribute it to your early adoption of the black, because like I never write a full, I rarely write emails on a phone period unless I have to. And you'll just like bang them out. Like, wow.
Erica: Well, I mean, I think, yeah, we would have to otherwise go to a school that was like 20 blocks away or go to the internet cafe, which was four blocks away. So it felt it was a huge privilege. Obviously a Blackberry. What a nonsense device.
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Erica: One of the things that I always think about is when you were contemplating breaking up with a bad boyfriend.
Claire: This was the third one I was going to bring up. We, it's funny because at that point we really were super close and, and like, I mean, we were super close the whole time, but at that--
Erica: But as an adult way, not a college.
Claire: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I, and at that point I like also understood that we, what we were in was like a lifelong, like impactful, meaningful relationship. But I was, I didn't confide in anybody that I was, um, contemplating breaking up with him cause it was really complicated and he was really toxic and jealous and it was an abusive honestly. And so it was really scary for me to admit to anybody, including myself. And I remember we were at, um, Mermaid Inn the one in the village in east village or just like Greenwich village, I guess, um, sitting at a high top and I told you and you reacted. So just like, yeah, okay. I think that makes sense. That might be a good idea. Yeah. It was so meaningful and such a turning point in my ability to do this thing that was ultimately like, I still look at it as like one of the most life-changing decisions I made and you, yeah, you were just, you didn't say like, oh my God, you didn't say like, thank God I've been dying for you to come to this realization. You'd also stuck with me through the relationship, which was another thing, but..
Erica: Well, I think I was a little bit blind honestly, to the fact that it, that the relationship was of the nature of that.
Claire: It was, uh, so that is like, I think another important like piece of the biography of our relationship or the history of our relationship is that I was for four years in the super toxic relationship with someone who really intentionally isolated me from all of my friends and for whatever reason, he identified you as someone who was not a threat. And so you were one of my like lifelines in a way throughout those four years where it was like, you were one friend I was able to still hold on to and socialize with.
Erica: And because I wasn't allowed in, I just don't, I don't think I had a true sense of what was going on. Like I knew that he was controlling to a certain extent or at least like very stringent or like a particular definitely. Um, but yeah, he also liked my boyfriend, now husband, in a way that was sort of unlikely and surprising.
Claire: Um, they were politically aligned.
Erica: They were, and they both liked to play basketball.
Claire: That's right. Exactly. And it's funny because I remember during that period, I mean, another thing about the dynamic of our relationship and that like came through then too, or like I remember being conscious of them was that like, I never wanted to let you down. I never wanted to disappoint you. I always wanted to like, meet your standards, which like, I think you've always just been sort of like more mature than most, or like, you know, especially when we were in college and stuff. And so I went to great pains in that relationship to be like, no, we can't be late. We can't cancel on them. We can't like this, that the other, because it was like, this is like the one friendship I still have, and I don't want her, I didn't want you to be like, what the fuck, what's going on there?
Erica: What's this flakiness or like what.
Claire: Exactly. Yeah. And so, so yeah, I think that definitely informed our friendship too. And, and in fact it did because when we came up with the idea for Of a kind, I hadn't broken up with him yet. And I think us initially coming up with the idea helped me get the courage to break up with him because I saw this thing on the other side that I would never be able to do with him. And like for many reasons you were the only person in my life who like I ever would, we would have ever shared this idea together. Right. And so it was just like, yeah, that was like, yeah, that was part of it too.
Erica: The other, the other time where I felt like our relationship went to a new place for me was, um, I had a lot, like a lot of parental drama, um, for like long stretches of time for like a full year, um, of just like mental health stuff and like whatever. And I have a husband who is incredibly supportive, but like incredibly supportive in his way. Um, and during that time you are incredibly supportive in a very different way. And I think I had these like, flashes of being like, God, like, I can't imagine not having you, like, I can't imagine like trying to go through this with like, just this one person as a support who like, again is trying like, is doing everything that he can to be supportive. Um, but you both support in such different ways. Um, and you have such an interest in like, not maybe, maybe interest isn't fair, um, because maybe you didn't have an interest at all, but you have an ability to like tap into and latch onto all of the like granular parts of things.
Claire: Um, and it's fair to call it an interest.
Erica: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, you'll just like dive in, you know, you will dive in really deep and you knew every player you knew the name of every doctor you'd be like, is that this doctor or this doctor, like, what was that? Or like, how did that, what was the medication this, or this or that? Um, and I needed that. Like I needed someone to be able to just dump on sometimes. Um, and also to be able to like, provide really informed feedback that I didn't need to be like getting up to speed constantly, or like whose opinion I could trust to understand this. And not see that like me dumping on you was like flailing or like a cry for, I don't know. It was like something else. I don't know.
Claire: Yeah. I, that was the other, that was the fourth thing I thought of too, is this like that, that moment. And it's funny because that facet of our friendship like took on such a diff, has like through the years taken on such different like shapes and meaning. And I will say that like is weird way to put it, but it's a privilege, like I remember as is such a weird thing, but so I remember this was before Of a kind when this, like also the first sort of like this started, and I remember you probably G chatted me and you were like, Hey, are you available? Like, can you get drinks like today or tomorrow? And back then, you know, I don't know how we were so busy. We were in our twenties, but we're always like planning stuff weeks in advance. And I was like, wow, she wants to see me really soon. And it's like, really like, um, it feels intentional and feels pressing. And I was like, oh my God, she's totally gonna tell me she's engaged. Oh my God, this is like so exciting. And like just, I knew you had an announcement to make. And we met at the lobby of the Greenwich hotel, um, extremely fancy of us, incredibly fancy. I walked by at recently and I was like, wow, I like never go there.
Erica: And we were like 24 and 25 year-old dummies.
Claire: And I can like, look and picture like that. That's another very visual memory. Like I can like look into that room and see us at the exact table we were sitting at. And I remember when you told me like the actual news, I was like, I did, I felt privileged that you were like, I got to tell Claire and I want to like it and that you wanted like my thoughts or just my support or whatever. And then it morphed into this thing where like sitting across a couple's desk from you however many years later, and you'd have to like run and get a phone call to just be able to be like, I feel so lucky right now that I can like be the type of person she needs to be while dealing with this in a work environment. And like, can tell everybody else, like, we're going to push this meeting by an hour and not talk to you about it and just be like, no, what you needed in that moment felt like, yeah, like great to be able to do.
Erica: Well, we've talked about so many times, um, just the value of having that relationship at work. Um, and like the person who knows at least just like enough about you enough about like what you're dealing with to be able to like, I don't know, like step in and like tap, like tap in.
Claire: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And certainly you've done that for me in a million different ways. Like I am the first one that comes to mind is like when my grandmother was dying and I remember like, you know, obviously you were close with her too, but to you to just understand. Yeah. But like you understood like the gravity of it and the nature of it and like all the players involved and, and just everything, it just, it felt very like seamless the way, ways in which you were able to support me through that. And then a million other things, like many of which in retrospect seemed super petty, but like both of us, you know, dealing with apartment stuff or stuff, that's been dramatic where you're just like, I get it. And I know that it's awful. And yeah. Um, the, yeah, the work thing, it, it just makes such a big difference in the work environment to have that.
Erica: What have been the times when you felt like our relationship was strained or hard, or were you ever like, is this, is this going to like fray and crumble?
Claire: I've never, I, in my mind, it's never, I've never gotten to the point where I'm like, is this the end? I just remember. I just remember when we started Of a kind in those very early, like incredibly fraught days. I mean, I just feel like three months or however many months leading up to the launch and the first like three to six months post-launch so let's say a year or even everything just felt so fraught. And I remember having a moment walking from my apartment on the upper west side to the nearest ups store to drop off shipments, like e-commerce orders having this, uh, light bulb moment or something, this revelation, I was like, oh, if this thing doesn't work out, that will probably be the end of our friendship. And it was like, really, when it hit me and several years later, it's still doing Of a kind. At some point, I realized that the business could fail and we would be fine. But in that moment, I was just like. And it's funny because like, obviously that should have occurred to me before, and I maybe had deep down known it, but I really had that moment. Then it was just like, okay, in addition to everything else, I've, I've put at stake for this project. Now this is on the line too, yeah.
Erica: Yeah, yeah. I feel the same about that time. And maybe mine's like a little bit earlier. And it's like, when we were like putting, when we were like determining the terms of the business and like how that was all coming together and that felt very tense and like lawyers and like--
Claire: It was awful.
Erica: Awful and official. And you were the CEO. And that was like, I think a place of having to get to, of being okay with that being a title. And, but not necessarily feeling like, not letting that be like, say something about, I don't know, like say something about like who we were as friends.
Claire: Yeah.
Erica: Does that make sense?
Claire: It does. Um, it does.
Erica: I mean, yeah. I think like, basically like for the first time we were being assigned roles, right? Yeah. Um, and being assigned roles for the first time in your relationship when you were like, however many years in like eight years into a friendship, it's like, oh, we've never talked about like what role we would each play. Right. Because we're just like friends. And then all of a sudden there was conversations about like, who's in charge of this and who's in charge of that. And that's hard.
Claire: It was awful. And it was like, you know, obviously in retrospect, so much of it was inconsequential and driven by like ego and insecurity and all of this stuff. And at the same time, it did feel like this really important test that like, if we could get through that, yes. Then like we could through so much more. And because it truly was probably the hardest, like argument we've ever had, or like, you know, conversations to like, I don't know if it's like an argument, but like conflict or like tension or like process we've ever gone through. And, and, and I remember knowing at the time being like this absolutely sucks. And also once it's done, it's done. And it does feel like this important part of things, um, or part of the process. And in that same way that like, you know, when we give advice to other people starting businesses with partners, and they're like, how do I split up equity? Or how do I do this? And you're just like, the thing is you have to actually have the conversation because it A, to protect yourself because you have to do this, but B, because like, if you can't do that, then you're not going to be able to deal with all the other stuff coming at you.
Claire: 100%. You can't just be like, it's going to be, we're going to be Co-CEOs and we're going to have the same, same, same, same, same, and no one's in charge of anything.
Erica: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, do you remember the first time when we met each other's families?
Claire: I don't know if this is actually the first time. I feel like I must have met your parents before this, but the thing that I like really remember is going to that pancake place in Chicago with, I it's definitely the first time I met your brothers and yeah. I just remember them eating like the most, so many in the most ridiculous, like, like a town or like a park. I feel like you I'm surprised you don't remember the name of it had Bos in it. Or like?
Erica: I loved it. I went there a lot. Um, but they did have these, like, it was always like stacks of four pancakes and it'd be just like chocolate chips. Right. It was like a Hawaiian. And then it was like caramel and pineapple and blah, blah, blah. And there was always because it's the Midwest, a line at like 8:30 in the morning on weekends.
Claire: Yeah. And I think that, that was the first time I met your brothers and they were very much little brothers and they were like, kind of quiet and not obviously interested in me, like, or like, or like participating in the conversation and that we're just really focused on these, these absurd pancakes. And I think that helped me get a sense of like you as someone with little brothers, whereas you had just been this like, sort of like independent, like very on top, like, you know, self-possessed person. And I was like, oh, this is also part of life.
Erica: Yes, totally. Um, I can't, I don't know if this was actually the first time that I met. I can't remember meeting your dad for the first time. I remember meeting your mom or like interacting with your mom. She was like down on campus one day and she was in the C shop, which was like the cool, one of the cool coffee shops on campus. And also like, it makes so much sense that your mom would have been like nosing around campus.
Claire: I feel like I know that this isn't true, but in my mind, she would show up unannounced on campus. And I'm sure that's not true, but someone must, you must understand that we went to college in Chicago and my mother lived in Delaware and like still lives there. And the fact, and she travels a lot for her job, but the consistency with which she would manage to route flights through O'Hare was shocking. Like she was in there constantly.
Erica: Impressive. I like this question. How is our on-air friendship different from our off-air offline version?
Claire: Mm. I mean, we're like less upbeat for cheer. I don't know. We talk a lot more shit. Like, and I just, of course I don't. I mean, we try in general to like, not go negative, uh, on the internet, including the internet, including the podcast universe in part, because like, well, for a lot of reasons not to be jerks and like our opinions, aren't always solid. And sometimes you just need to vent and like your opinions change. And I don't want this thing out there in the world, but I feel like, look, we're obviously opinionated on the podcast, but we're way more opinionated in real life.
Erica: Yes, yes. And our opinions are like even less vouched for, or like, yeah.
Claire: Like, yeah. I'm not as willing to like stand up to them. I mean, obviously we're very close. We can like say a lot of that was like eyebrow raising and that the other one will be like, I know you didn't really mean that, or you didn't mean it in the way you said it or whatever.
Erica: Or like I get how yeah. I get what you meant.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. Um, and yeah, I that's one yet. We're definitely less upbeat. I mean, we talk all the time. So we are also talk, you know, have like moments where it's just like, one of us is so tired or whatever it is. Like we'd have gotten slightly better about not going too deep on topics. We know we want to talk about on the podcast, but like a lot of times I, you know, I know what your general take on something is going to be, because we, we just talked so much all day.
Erica: This is, this is I think a good one to end on maybe. What is one of our longest running inside jokes, AKA personal memes. I struggle with this. I don't really know.
Claire: No, I don't know if I know either.
Erica: Okay. Well, I was hoping you would, I was really hoping you would clearly.
Claire: I mean, I feel like we actually don't do this anymore, but at some point we were pretty good at like the shop anywhere of like, if you had to shop in that weird prom dress store that we just passed, like, what would you get?
Erica: Yes, yes. Yes.
Claire: I mean, we love to fantasize about setups.
Erica: Yeah. True. Okay. And casting movies. Yeah. Well, and just like casting P or like who would play this person, this person that we know in real life, in a movie, like there was definitely a period of time where we were doing a ton of that. We would just like sit and like, we'd be eating a meal and we would spend the entire time being like, no, no, no. I think it's Ben Stiller. I think it's Ben Stiller that would play that like VC we just met because of X, Y, and Z.
Claire: Well, and I think, you know, to like take that one step further, we're just very interested in like casting the world and being like this publication needs to write this article and this, someone needs to start this business. It shouldn't be us and it'll probably fail, but it's going to happen. And so like, let's just like, get a move on with that, that thing.
Erica: Lots of ideas we don't want to execute on.
Claire: Yeah, exactly. I just like, I, it was like, what 2012, when we were being like, someone needs to just start a restaurant, that's just bowls, just like rice bowls and grain bowls. And we're not interested in doing it, but we're just, and, and we've always got a lot of article ideas. We want to pitch for somebody else to write. And, um, we've always got a lot of, you know, people who we think should be in X role, like tell us a job, an empty job role. And we're like this person and that person. And we think, you know, we're just, we want to, we're fucking nosy and like, and want to just do all this stuff.
Erica: That's great. Yeah. I love this.
Claire: This was fun.
Erica: That's the show.
Claire: I'm Claire Maeser.
Erica: And I'm Erica Cerulo. If you want more where this came from or wanna support us in general, head to Athingortwohq.com and sign up for Secret menu, which will give you weekly access to members-only content.
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Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.