Bi Bi Bi 2.0
6/25/21 - Jordan and Gina round out Pride with a followup to our Bi Bi Bi episode from 2018. We hear from Divinity (@officiallydivinity) who identifies as bisexual, gray ace, and aromantic and how those labels coalesce for her. Divinity has amazing things to share about friendship. love, sex, connection, and becoming your brightest, fullest self. For those who are struggling to come out or are feeling like their bi identity is invisible in their relationships, we see and love you.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: BI BI BI 2.0
[ads]
Jordan: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Gina: A podcast for long distance besties, everywhere.
Jordan: I'm producer Jordan Bailey.
Gina: And I'm executive producer Gina Delvac. And on this week's agenda an update to our Bi Bi Bi episode of a few years ago. We're wrapping out our pride series talking about bisexuality with Officially Divinity.
Jordan: Yes, I'm so excited.
Gina: Me too
[theme song]
[interview begins]
Jordan: Gina, You did our first time episode of Bi Bi Bi a couple of years ago. And I'd love to hear, um, what inspired you to do the Bi Bi Bi episode all those years ago?
Gina: Yeah, I think back then I was in a monogamous relationship with a cis straight man and was really feeling like my bisexual identity was very masked from the public and from myself and feeling like if I wanted to participate in spaces on the basis of just sort of holding that identity versus who I was dating or not dating that it was just going to be taking up space that rightfully belong to other people, especially for me as a cis white person. So I was kind of struggling with like, how do I express my full self and also what's okay. Like where do I want to leave room for more impacted members of our queer family?
Jordan: Yeah, I mean, I, I totally hear that. I have a lot of, uh, friends who have been in similar situations who, you know, bi women who are in relationships with men and it feels hard to, to access your, your queer identity during those times. Um, yeah. I remember listening to that episode, um, back in 2018 when I was just a listener of CYG, and it really spoke to me to a lot of, um, you know, experiences that friends have had. And I remember sending that episode too, to a lot of friends at the time. I still often, like when friends will, um, talk to me about feelings of invisibility in relationships. I often send them that episode to listen to so they can feel a little bit less alone. So it was definitely, it definitely like helped out a lot of people that I know personally. So I'm really glad you did that back then. Oh yeah. And so we're doing like a little update to it this year, and I'm curious, like what feels different for you now? Like, you know, we're a couple of years out from the first round of, of Bi Bi Bi and I'm curious, kind of what's changed for you.
Gina: Two things. One is coming out of the pandemic. It seems like many people have had time to not feel quite so visible in public society if they were safe at home and have kind of had evolutions of their gender, their pronouns, their sexual orientation, discovering that without that external factor of society helping shape who you are in quite the same degree, that like, we're all kind of figuring this out. So it feels like there's just such an active conversation on Tiktok and elsewhere about sexuality being bi, being pan, being queer, like the kind of more spectrum identities within the queer rainbow. Um, and people kind of like exploring that for themselves. So that was one piece of it as it felt like it's almost like the water's warmer for, bi people than it maybe has been in the past as more totally kind of trying to embrace those sides of themselves.
Jordan: Yeah. And there's kind of a, like a personal piece for you in there too, isn't there?
Gina: Absolutely. Yeah. So I know I said before, like I was in a long-term monogamous partnership when I reported the first episode and now I'm not, so I've been dating, I've been dating people of all genders and it's a very different perspective on and conversation that I have with people about what is it to be by whether I might be interested in a cis straight person versus that kind of like sense of is that cool or not when I'm talking to a queer person. So, um, it's just a whole new realm of experience of seeing like that identity for me in dialogue with other people and definitely feeling like not both from the reporting on the show and from my life now, not feeling quite so invisible. So wanting to share that with other people who may be kind of either struggling or wanting to find their place. And that's kind of a perfect transition to our interview this week.
Jordan: Yeah. So I know you talked with Divinity who has the Instagram and Tiktok handles Officially Divinity, um, about bisexuality and how she identifies. And I can't wait to hear your conversation with her.
Gina: Yeah. Divinity is such a bright light is so fully herself and is embraced so many different sides of herself that I think are these beautiful gradations within the many colors you see in identity from being gray ace, to bisexual, aromantic, and she talks about all those things and how it shapes, how she connects with queer people, how she expresses her identity and what she asks from other people being in community with her. I can't wait for you to listen.
Divinity: My name is Divinity and I am she her, I identify as being bisexual, gray ace, and aromantic. So a cocktail, if
You will. Delicious one. Yeah. And we're here today to talk about bisexuality. When did you start identifying as Bi and what does that mean to you?
Divinity: So for as long as I knew, um, I thought that everyone was bi, this was like my experience growing up. I grew up in a very traditional, very conservative epistolic, evangelical, you know, speaking in tongues, casting out demons type of house. Well, it wasn't until, um, I grew up in Los Angeles, so yeah, but like we, we moved around from church to church. My mom is an evangelist. So, um, to my knowledge, I thought that everyone was, um, bi, I thought that because God said, quote fingers, not to do something that people would just pick a side and choose whether or not they were going to like rebel against God or like follow what the Bible says. I remember the first time I realized that I wasn't quote fingers normal was when I, um, was allowed to go into the, um, the adult church. So as a rule, the church that we used to go to when I was a young, when I was a kid was, um, you couldn't go into the adult church until you were after you were like 12 or 13, um, depending on what your parents' discretion was. So when I turned 12, my mom started letting me join her in church or whatever. And, um, the pastor was speaking about homosexuality and how, you know, attracting attraction to same-sex was wrong. And the shock that I felt in the fear, I remember being afraid and being like, shocked that everyone else wasn't also liking people like I had from the, from the beginning, since I could remember, like I had always found everyone aesthetically attractive when I knew like what that experience was like as a kid growing up. So, yeah. Um, I mean, I think that bisexuals are not treated as if they're born, by the way, people who have, you know, what society calls like picked aside has like, oh, I'm gay or I'm straight, or, you know, I'm just, non-binary whatever, like we're not treated as if we were born by it's like somewhere along the line, we choose to be bisexual and just live our lives from that point. And I just like, from my experience, that's not true.
Gina: Yeah. Same here. And I think that born this way messaging was really effective and opening the doors for people have like really strongly, like you said, binary identity, but the fluidity is not as well captured in that. Right. Like, but we can be born being attracted to all sorts of different people. Um, for you, this is like such a, everyone wants to debate this. Like does by mean there's a gender binary or what does buy mean to you in terms of what range of gender identities you're attracted to?
Divinity: Sure. Um, the way that I picture I'm a visual person. So the way that I picture like sexuality or attraction is just a spectrum. And for me the colors, it's like the primary colors of that spectrum is masculine and feminine, right? So like, and I'm, I'm talking about like presenting, not gender. So like there are people who, you know, are very presenting masculine or people who present very feminine. And then there are people who present anywhere in between. You know, there are people who present like a potato, like somewhere, you know, somewhere along the lines of that spectrum, but it's all a spectrum. So if you are on that spectrum and you are a human person, then there is a good chance that I would find you attractive. I'm not, I have never, I've never looked at someone that I've seen online and like, oh, let me go see what their pronouns are before. I think that they're attractive. Like to me, that's, that's just unheard of. It's like, you see something that you like, and it registers with you and that's just your disposition. And that's, to me, that's what being bisexual is. It's like, I just think that people are beautiful.
Gina: Yeah. Truly. And yeah. Any number of different people can be beautiful. And I agree for me, my definition of bi is inclusive of all gender identities. I think that, um, probably if I were 10 years younger, I might identify as pansexual, but it's like, I picked my word when I did. And that i...
Divinity: Yeah, for sure. Same here.
Gina: It sounds cute. I don't know. There's something about it. That's like, that's just me. Um, you've talked in some of the content you've published online about being aromantic for people who aren't familiar. What does that mean to you?
Divinity: So the simple definition is a person who doesn't have a desire or capacity for romantic attraction. Um, I don't experience romantic attraction. So like when I say that I'm attracted to someone and especially because I'm also gray ace, which, which means that like, um, I do experience sexual attraction, but like very rarely do I experience it and under different circumstances. So what that means for me is that the height of my attraction to someone kind of caps out at like friendship. And if I happen to be sexually attracted to them, then yes, we might hook up or whatever, if it's a mutual, um, you know, situation or whatever. Um, but like by no means would I want to pursue a romantic, traditional relationship with them at all? I don't have a certain... Oh no. It's like, I don't have a desire for it. And I don't really have a capacity for it. And I’ve tried romantic relationships in the past. And like even went to therapy and like all kinds of stuff to try to see, like, if it was me that was broken. And then I found this amazing community of awesome and just loving, understanding people and realized that I was not alone in my experience. And that was like, life-changing,
Gina: That's amazing. And I was going to say like, do people believe you, when you say like, yeah, I'm drawn to you. I want to engage. But not in that way. Like not in a romantic way, in a sexual way. It depends.
Divinity: So I think that people, they, a lot of the things that I feel like aromantic people hear a lot is like, you haven't met the right person or whatever. Like when you meet the right person, then you're going to realize you're not aromantic. And I feel like with every label you should go with the information that you've had up until that point. And if it changes, then you flow with that. But up until this point, I have yet to have that experience and the evidence of like the course of my life and my connections have shown that it's not likely to change. That is just, you know, who I am as a person and what my experiences. And I think the, the thing is that people is they ascribe a good or a bad to it. Like they want to define it as good or a bad thing. And it's not a good or a bad thing. It's my experience. That's like telling someone it's okay to be gay. It's just as offensive as saying something like that. Like, oh, you haven't found the right person. It's like telling me, like, you know, it's not okay for me not to have romantic attraction because for whatever reason people say like, oh, that's what makes you human is the ability to fall in love. And it's like, no, I'm a very loving friend. I'm a very loving person. I just don't experience romantic feelings for people.
Gina: Right.
Divinity: So I think when I do disclose this, that is the normal reaction that I get is like, oh, you just haven't met the right person. The right person is going to blow your mind. And it's like, to me, from my vantage point, I am the person who blows my mind. And I don't mean that because this is where people get confused as well. It's like, they think that it's narcissism and it's like, no, I'm just so full of like overwhelming love from my family, my friendships and my self-love that I don't, I don't crave having a partner, you know, like I'm so in love with my life that I don't feel like anything is missing. And to me, that's not a negative thing. That's just my disposition.
Gina: Yeah. Not at all. It sounds beautiful. I think like there's a lot of people who really struggle with self-love. And so to feel that kind of sense in yourself is wonderful. And it's, it's interesting that you mentioned that because there has been so much reflection in more recent years for people who are looking for romantic partnership, who are looking for romantic, love that the key to finding it tends to be cultivating yourself love, and then finding that draw where people can meet you in your true self. It's always strange to me when people are like, you know what, you're wrong about you? And you're like, well, you're not me. So I don't know what you know.
Divinity: Yeah, for sure. My response to that is always, I am the only person who knows who I am. People know what they see online. People know what they read about or whatever the case is or information that's handed down to them through other people's experiences. But at the end of the day, I am the only one who knows who I am. So with that being said, I don't let it bother me too much.
Gina: I love that too. Yeah. Well, right. Being, being content with yourself as kind of like, okay, you can have your opinions. I don't want to hear, um, you mentioned friendship, you touched on this, you know, friendship is at the heart of our show. How important has it been for you to have friends, a community of people who do understand where it is that you're coming from?
Divinity: It is extremely important. I was just having this conversation less than like 30 minutes ago where I was saying that because I grew up so conservative Christian and then decided to come out and be visible and like, you know, live my best life. I have had such a turnover of friends throughout the years because I grew up in those communities with other people who, you know, raise their kids just as conservative as I was coming up. So, and most of them stuck with that lifestyle and the choice to kind of follow those beliefs and doctrine. So, one thing about my experience with my past Christian friends, it's like when you start living a lifestyle that they deemed as sinful or rebellious or whatever, they kind of excommunicado you, you don't have those friendships anymore. So I had to like start building my chosen family and friendship circle from scratch. So once I started to be in community with people who were like me, who understood my experiences, who even had similar, um, backgrounds and stuff and were able to overcome those kinds of like, um, you know, setbacks. And because I read this meme that said like queer people spend, most of them talk most of their lives, not as themselves. And then like once we're brave enough or safe enough to come out and really be who we are, we're like making up for lost time. So a lot of those relationships has allowed me to experience connection in ways that I didn't get to growing up and that's been like so meaningful to me.
Gina: Yeah. They add the transformative power of being seen by a friend can be.
Divinity: It's amazing.
Gina: So life-altering yeah. How do you, um, how do you weather the loss of those people? Like losing a friend who's become chosen family now I'm just like curious like your, your guidance for living. Cause you seem like you have a lot figured out like, yeah. How do you make that decision? Or how do you let someone go, who you feel like isn't seeing, isn't relating to who you are now, as you continue to change and flourish as your full self?
Divinity: Right. Um, that part, I wouldn't say I have figured out actually I've made the decision recently to go back to therapy because I'm a part of the people that I'm letting go happen to be family. You know, like I've made the very conscious and heavy decision to step away from those relationships that are no longer serving me. And it comes with a lot of grief and we want to glamorize our healing process and make it seem like, you know, that it's all sunshine and roses. And it's not that like, it's not a lot. There are a lot of days where I just have to allow myself to sit in my feelings and cry. And I think what I have learned is that mourning potential is like mourning a dead loved one. You know, like when you saw that there could be such a, um, a capacity for connection and love to be had in a certain relationship. And then you find out that because of who you are and how you exist, that you can have the relationships that you want to have with the people you love. It's a very, it's not an easy thing to overcome. And going back to our previous point, that is why community is so important and having that chosen family and that support, what I can say is while I am navigating, letting go, I am very well supported and I wouldn't be able to weather this as gracefully as I have been able to without my queer family. And I'm extremely grateful to them. For sure.
Gina: I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. I'm glad you're well supported. Yeah. And so it's, it's interesting too. I've been thinking a lot about what you said about weathering it gracefully of just like there's so much of just enduring, challenging times the times we've been living through from, you know, reckoning with white supremacy, the challenges of capitalism living through this pandemic, those of us that are lucky enough to survive and survive with most of our loved ones. It's, it's been a fucking hell of a ride. And the, I'm feeling like it's often not graceful and trying to find some acceptance for that too, of the ugly.
Divinity: When I say graceful, I mean, turning everything into memes. [laughter] That's a big part of it is making a joke about all of my trauma. That's, that's what I mean. When I say graceful.
Gina: There we go, girl, get that content, right. [laughter]
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Gina: Do you think that sex and friendship can ever mix? I know you mentioned that you tend to be sexually drawn to people that you have a deeper affinity for.
Divinity: Um, I think it’s sustainable when everyone is on the same page. So I've, I've been able to sustain relationships that have been very beneficial for me and my community and friendship ways, but we've also interacted sexually as well. We support each other in our endeavors. We talk about our other partners, um, our people that we're sleeping with and when everyone involved is just like mature and wanting the same things, it's a very enjoyable environment to navigate because there's so much honesty and openness. Um, it's, it's a very unique feeling to be able to go and cry to someone about my loss and then hook up with them the next week. And we don't skip a beat like with our friendships. So I think that that's amazing. I, I have to say that it's prior to the last two years, it hasn't been something that I thought I would be able to like have my cake and eat it to like have amazing friends and then also get to explore, you know, some fun, sexy things with them as well. And nobody is getting caught in the crossfire of like getting their feelings hurt or feeling used or lie to because everyone's like openly communicating and are supportive and you know, just very adult and mature about it. And it's honestly, I could never in my life have a traditional relationship ever, ever, once you experienced this kind of freedom. And I think for me, for my disposition, it's like, I could never, this is like, this is where it's at for me.
Gina: Hell yeah. Um, yeah. So happy for you with that. It also sounds like being more true with who you are and like being real about that, right? It's like much easier for people to choose whether or not they can meet that need or be around someone who of us, like you said, spend so much time hiding parts of ourselves that seem inconvenient or uncomfortable that we don't necessarily get to what it is that we actually want.
Divinity: And I think that largely has to do with this like culture of wanting to be accepted over being connected. You know, it's just like people will take what they can get versus what they want. And like when you start to be honest with yourself about who you are, you get to be connected, not just accepted for what you're presenting as. And I think that that's something that I've learned over the last couple of years is that I want to be connected. I don't really care too much to be accepted because like acceptance, it kind of requires for you to perform, right? Cause you like learn what that person is asking for what they need or whatever. But throughout that, throughout that relationship, the connection can suffer because once you're not able to keep that up, you know, once you're living through a pandemic and you know what I'm saying, and stuff starts to hit the fan and those, um, things you had in place to keep those relationships going start to falter your connection is going to suffer because you're not going to be able to perform to be accepted. So when you're truly connected, it's like when you're in your truest form of yourself and you're like, this is me, this is the messiest parts of my life. These are my limitations. You know, these are my limitations. This is what I can give. This is why I can't give, once you start to like live life on that level, that's when you really start to connect with your people because then you know that people aren't settling for a version of you, but it's not authentically who you are.
Gina: And how do you weather you're changing self, do you feel like that's a conversation you have in an ongoing way with like your friends and community?
Divinity: Yeah, I do. We check in, I feel like checking in is important. Um, don't put it off, you know, uncomfortable conversations are not the easiest to lean into, you know, because you could be going into it potentially finding out that like you and another person are starting to want different things and you know, or need different things. And those needs are not being met within that connection anymore. So you might have to mutually agree that it might be beneficial to go in separate ways, but if you're lucky, you know, again, that person will see the value in that connection and in your worth and want to keep you around for what you can offer and give to that situation versus what you're not able to at that moment. So I feel like those conversations are worth having it's just when I think communication is key, it's really not a cliche. Like it really is the best thing you can ever do for any connection, regardless of what the dynamic is.
Gina: Here's something my queer lady, friends and I have been debating lately, is this feeling of when we are hooking up with or close to cis straight dudes, that it can feel like these old hetero tropes that we don't have in other relationships start to reassert themselves. Do you find that, or do you find that like with this kind of robust communication that you're talking about, you're able to weather that, or maybe you're just drawn to only people? I don't know.
Divinity: Um, luckily, most, and I say, luckily most of my, uh, connections tend to kind of either be on the fence of, or in the area of like some type of queer connection there. One of my really good friends right now and cis and straight, but also aromantic. So there's like that core element to that connection where there's a commonality there, but I do have, um, people that I've been close or intimate with that are cis straight men. And there's no way getting around that. It's hard to have, like with all your communication tools, it's still hard to have those conversations because if they haven't done the work to educate themselves, because they're not actually a part of those communities, you find that it can be emotionally taxing because you're both trying to express and educate at the same time. Um, when talking to them or pointing out behaviors that might be problematic or whatever the case is. So I agree. It is. There's just no getting around that those, those areas of life are hard to navigate. And I applaud anyone who's like putting in the emotional work and labor to help their cis partners or friends, you know, kind of ally themselves to the community because that is definitely a full-time job. [laughter]
Gina: Especially if he's white. Right. What’s it been like for you to share your identities and experiences so openly on social media? Does it get ever get overwhelming to be so visible? Is it empowering? Is it both?
Divinity: Um, I would say it's a mixture of both. So in the beginning I felt like I fell into this trap of being like both expressor and educator. And like I said, that gets emotionally taxing after a while. And lately I've found a very healthy, but very blunt boundary where I don't educate and argue anymore because I feel like especially being a black creator, that when I'm sharing things about my identity or I'm sharing things about racial justice or I'm sharing things about being a Black woman, then my plan for my platform gets amplified. It gets, you know, so many views or likes or whatever. And then people try to box me into this is who I am as a person. When the reason I'm sharing these things is to show that that that is not just who I am. So it's like this opposite effect or whatever. So what I do to kind of like combat that kind of overwhelmed because it's disheartening. When I share things that I enjoy about my life that have nothing to do about my core identity that have nothing to do with me being Black or being a woman. And it gets steamrolled over by the same people who say they support you. It sends the message that queer people and black people or minorities in general, don't have value outside of educating and, um, sharing their, uh, struggle stories about what it's like to be them. So now I share what I want to share out of my own reflections about what I'm learning about myself, that bring me joy. Um, if there are problematic themes that I see that I want to touch on, then I go ahead and share that. But I have stopped allowing social media to put a demand on me to say, this is the role I should be playing on social media. And they're only going to support me when I do that. And I like when people ask me questions, I will literally tell them to Google it. And I don't care if people think that's rude because it's like Black and queer people are not a shortcut to the work that allies need to put in if they want to understand and be in community with us. So I would say some mixture of both because it's been liberating to find community and to be in community and be doing life with all my virtual friends online, you know, but at the same time, you have the few people who try to put a demand on your emotional labor because they see you as a conduit for some type of work. They're not willing to put in for themselves
Gina: Truly. And reminder to our listeners, Google is free. Um, Venmo may not be free anymore, but Google is still free. Um, last couple of questions. Um, what's on your algorithm right now, like on your, for you page or like when you're having like a fun scroll moment, what are the favorite themes and things that you see come up?
Divinity: Oh God, um, I'm such a nerd. So a lot of Marvel, right now lots of Loki content. Cause I'm all about that. Of course, there's of Adam Driver content. Cause I'm obsessed. I see lots of cosplay, uh, lots of like Bi and queer people just like enjoying life. And because of what I just said previously, I make it a point to not just support these creators when they're sharing those parts of their lives. But if they're just doing like a tiktok dance or they're doing like a funny skit or showing us where they got their hair from, like I'm all about it. And I want to like it and I like want to, you know, put it up there. So lots of, lots of funny, um, lots of funny stuff, lots of skits, lots of queer people, thirst trapping, you know, we all about that on my for you page. Well, that's, that's pretty much it.
Gina: And what's your favorite meme right now?
Divinity: Ooh, my favorite meme. That's such a good question. I am a meme queen. I have so many means. It's so hard for me to pick one.
Gina: Or a go-to reaction.
Divinity: Oh my, okay. My go-to reaction gif is Pikachu crossing his arms and looking in the other direction because he is not having his way. That is living with my personality encapsulated in one gif like telling me no and I will start Pikachu-ing so hard. You'll start to see the lightning coming off my body. It's a problem.
Gina: I love it. It's perfect. Um, anything else you wanted to share divinity? Anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to get into?
Divinity: Um, no. I would say that to all the, bi people who are in the closet or don't feel valid or to the bi women or men in relationships that are straight passing, who think that you can't celebrate your queerness, these spaces belong to you as well. I think that I said something today talking to a friend in reflection that being armored is not the same as being strong. And I think that, you know, letting your armor down and realizing that you can be vulnerable and hold space for duality in your life, that two things can be right at the same time. Like you can be married to a man being a woman and still be a bi a woman holding space for those kinds of things is important because it allows you to have community. So I just want to say that you're valid and you're seen, and there is community and love and friendship to be had on this side of the rainbow. So come on over.
Gina: So beautifully said, yes, we're here. We're here to make your, um, like to erase all the bi and visibility and to celebrate bi wife energy. I think we're all here for that.
Divinity: I love that song on tiktok
Giina: It’s so fun. Thank you so much Divinity. I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for coming on Call Your Girlfriend.
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Gina: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much to divinity. You can find divinity at Officially Divinity on Tiktok and Instagram and all the places bringing so much delight honestly, to your, for you page.
Jordan:I was just going to say she brings so much joy to my, uh, to my Instagram feeds. I love like watching current Instagram.
Gina: Yeah totally. And speaking of delight, Jordan, it's been so fun. Reporting the series with you, getting to talk with you about things that we talk about in our meetings, but don't often make it to the show.
Jordan: I know this has been so great. I'm really, really grateful that Ann and Amina, let us take over, um, for Pride month this year. And yeah, it's been really fun doing this with you, Gina. I hope we do it again. Yeah. And thank you so much to all the listeners who've been writing in with your reactions and feedback to our pride series. It's been so fun hearing from you and we hope you keep sending us your thoughts on what we've been putting in.
Gina: Yeah, absolutely. You know where to find us. The inbox is callurgf@gmail.com. We love to hear from you and to anyone who's been struggling or is scared of some emerging identity that's coming up for you. We, as Divinity said, we are here for you. We have hugs for you. We have rainbow cake for you. Like come on down.
Jordan: Yes. We love you. We love you already.
Gina: Thank you Ann and Aminatou, for being our champions always. And we'll see you on the internet.
Jordan: See you on the internet.
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Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.