Boundaries
7/30/21 - We talk about finding and maintaining boundaries, why the world makes it easier for some people than others, how boundaries help us be in community with others, and how grateful we are for boundary possibility models like Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Executive Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Mercedes Gonzales-Bazan
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
TRANSCRIPT: BOUNDARIES
[Ads]
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend
Ann: A podcast for long distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I’m Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hello!
Ann:Oh my God. The joy in that. Hello.
Aminatou: Hi. Hi. [laughter]
Ann: Hello. From the depths of summer.
Aminatou: I don't even know why I'm laughing. I think it's a delirium at this point. I, yeah, I've just had one of those days where this is my 19th thing of the day. Hi.
Ann: Hi.
Aminatou: What are we doing today?
Ann: I'm excited for today's episode. Our agenda is one thing and one thing only, which is boundaries. Um, and I guess I shouldn't say one thing in one thing only because boundaries are like, you know, they're in everything or could and should be there in everything.
[theme song]
Aminatou: To quote, um, Oprah, famous Oprah quote. “No is a complete sentence,” which I think they should just, they should just start teaching that to everyone because I love whenever that becomes, it's like, it's always a meme that recurs, but I was like, this should be, it should just be like etched into all of our memories, please. Thank you.
Ann: I think Gmail should auto-populate it as the signature for everyone socialized as a woman like that, they'll link to Oprah saying that should just auto-populate and then we could all save ourselves so much apologizing for drawing and holding them by a boundary.
Aminatou: I mean, it's funny too, because I think that, you know, like learning how to draw and like also like own your boundaries is, or for me at least has been such a journey of self, like self exploration and getting some really crucial self knowledge because on one hand, I think it just teaches you a lot about kind of your own, your own personality and like how you are in the world and kind of what you expect. But I think it also just confronts you with how you are socialized in the world. And that is something that, um, a lot of times you don't have a lot of say in. And so, you know, like as you know, the bread and butter of this show is both looking at the personal and the structural. And I find that boundaries as a very good intersection of that.
Ann: Oh, completely. And it's also like about how the world is socialized to look at you, like whose boundaries are respected and whose boundaries must be consistently like, you know, fought for and upheld is like one of those things that, um, you know, we're taught should be in our control. Like, I think that, like, that's one thing that's so appealing about that. No is a complete sentence piece of advice. But in fact, you know, the world does not respect all boundaries equally, and that is like a big part of what's going on here too.
Aminatou: As a Black woman. I really, um, that's news to me [laughter] that people don't respect your boundaries or that they get upset when you voiced them out loud, honestly about has not been my experience of the world. And I'm just, I'm really shocked to hear you say that. So not to make everything about race, Ann, but like, can you explain this? How are white women doing boundaries? Because you know, like over here that we are heard and respected and seen, so please explain this to me.
Ann: Oh My God, I can't even with you right now. I also am just like, you know, the, the, like, how is insert demographic here doing boundaries I think is actually like, I know, I know like, you know, there this is a thing that is not news, but I just am like, wow, we should have done our homework and pulled up all the academic research about different demos and boundaries. Because like where, where is the boundary sociologists that we need to really give us the, like the headline outline of the way this is working for everyone.
Aminatou: Oh man, you, you just had boundaries sociologists. And I was like, do I need to go back to school because…
Ann: I'm Googling it right now.
Aminatou: Because I actually cause you know, like how you always meet, like the thing about academia is that yes, like it's a pyramid scheme, but all of the time I will meet people that get to study things that I'm just like, wow, I wish I cared that much. And also or could go really end up with something. And you have finally said the thing where I was like, oh, if I were an academic, this is the thing that I would like to study.
Ann: Oh, you would, you would be an iconic boundaries academic. Yeah, boundaries in the sense of like people figuring out where their energy and attention needs to go, how much energy attention they have to give to a specific thing or person or endeavor and getting to like actually follow through on determining that for themselves. Like, I think that is like what we're talking about here. Like although yes, like boundaries, a wide ranging term that can apply to a lot of stuff. It's basically like, how do you keep fuel in the tank for yourself to do the things that you want to do and that are important to you and make sure that the world is not extracting more from you than you are willing or able to give.
Aminatou: Wow, I'm getting chills. Just hearing you say that, um, how to not have the world extract from you more than you're willing to give the, the struggle of all of our lives. Well, you know, not to make everything like pandemic talk, but one of the things I have been really surprised by in this moment for myself, when, you know, like when you're not living in the constant fear of, of the illness that surrounding us, one of the things that has been like an interesting by-product for me is that this is the first year that I've had like really this kind of constraint on the choices that I make. But it's also been the first year where I have had a routine. Like there was no way to really demarcate, like the days from each other. But so from this, like having a routine for the first time and having, you know, like boundaries that were imposed by circumstances that were bigger than just me. One of the interesting things that happened for me is that I was like, okay, when I'm not afraid of like dying from the plague, that we're surrounded by actually the smallness of this life. And I see this like from a place of extreme privilege, I know this, but one of the like things that I kind of appreciated, not that I appreciated, the way I got this lesson was that when there are certain kinds of constraints on my, on my schedule and on myself, on my person and on how I, I am in the world, I actually was doing okay. And it was, it was like very interesting to learn that. And I think that like on one hand, I'm someone who, uh, who is like, has ADD. And so, oh, having a schedule is 10 out of 10 and how you don't deal with like, like all of the meltdowns that come with like that for me, I was like, this is where my anxiety spiral a lot of time comes from. But also I got to just like live life on my own terms every single day. It's like you, you saw the people that you wanted to see, AKA you saw basically no one.
Ann: [laughter]
Aminatou: Every, every choice that you made was the choice that you wanted to make. And, and there was something really hard about going back to the old way of life for me, where I just was completely out of control out in the streets where it's like, oh, like, I'm, I just, you're just like at the whim of the world, the whim of the wind, really. And, and so like in that moment, like really discovering like, okay, like when it's like, COVID aside for one second, which is such a, like, almost impossible to put aside from this. But I was like, if this were an experiment in like, how do you live in a small way where you can learn how to protect your mental health energy in a very small way, the lab conditions were kind of there. And, and the thing that I think like, I, I was so struck by was both like how some of this, like some of the external pressure on boundaries, it's just like, people are assholes. And like the world will always ask. And if you don't say no, like no one will say no for you. Like no one will protect you. But I think I also learned in that even like, even knowing what your boundaries are is, um, it's very hard if you don't sit down to like, think about it, you know, and to like really make some choices for yourself because the entire world is a buffet and everyone just wants you to be like this, like avaricious ogre and you have to like take it all in and you have to, you know, like we had that conversation a couple of weeks ago about like ambition and like what it means. And I think that the message that I had really absorbed from the world is that you have to make the best of every experience that you have. And you just have to be like going a hundred million miles an hour and doing all of those things. I was like, Hmm. Like this is not a sustainable lifestyle for me for many reasons. Um, and also it's not actually a lifestyle that I like, but also it's a construct that is just fake. And now when all of those things were removed, I was really just like left holding the truth of the fact that like, I did not have a good set of boundaries for myself, but also every single time I had tried to impose even small ones, the pushback was really immense. And so it's just been this, like, I dunno this very, like, it makes me like emotional, honestly, to think about like this, just like thinking for myself about like, okay, like what about this time in my life like, is actually good and what do I want to carry into the future? And also like, what are boundaries that I should have had and what are new boundaries that I wanted to have? And it's, you know, like it's a lot, self knowledge is like, it's a lot, but also it's very thrilling.
Ann: That’s so I mean, obviously we are different humans and obviously everybody like has dealt with the conditions of the past year, in their own way. But like, I, um, did not thrive with the boundaries imposed by like the pandemic. Like, and in fact, I think I learned, I learned a lot about what I need as well. I think the way everyone did, but it was like, not, it, it was almost like too much of a correction in, in one direction. So like in the pre pandemic times, I used to always have one night on my calendar that I had to stay home that I held. And that does not mean I was out six nights a week and only home one night a week, but it meant that like I could never have a week where like every single night was out and about. And I think that, like that tiny little thing of like, okay, like I recognize that there is such, such a thing as too much socializing was like a boundary that I needed in the before time. And like, in the pandemic times, I was like totally bereft to not have like the I don't know what maybe some people were experiencing as like intrusions of like, you know, outside the house work obligations and like social things. Like, I really, really struggled to like maintain my level of like joy and self knowledge without that, like, I sort of had like the inverse experience where I was like, I'm in a tailspin because it took me a long time to recognize that like, that stuff being missing would have such a profound effect on me, which is like, of course, like, of course. But, um, and so, you know, now I'm more like, um, I, I don't, it's like I'm refilling my tank again, which is not to say that I'm like partying all night every night, like far from it. I feel like I still have a pretty low key existence, but like, I don't need the placeholder on my calendar because the world is not fully back nor should it be. And I think like, you know, for me it's less like the boundary is not like holding off obligations. I think it's like, you know, understanding what kinds of thoughtful interactions are I have really missed in the past year and trying to kind of incorporate more of that and realizing like, you know, actually this wasn't just like me mindlessly flitting about in the world. This was like, you know, understanding myself, like finding community with people like doing, doing really important things to my health and wellbeing as a human. And so it's just like so interesting, like depending on our different, like, I don't know, like our different personalities and needs and like ways we were situated in the world that like this moment can mean such radically different things to us.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, even hearing you, you say that, I, I think that, like, that's kind of the point, right? It's that, for me, it's less about, um, what is the boundary that every single human being should have and whether it's, um, it's more, um, the reason that there conflicts around boundaries is precisely because we all have different boundaries and everyone has to learn to work within those constraints. And yeah. You know, and I think that we are having a classic, um, you know, like a extrovert, less extroverted person, um, experience, experience of that. But I think that, like, you know, the, the thing for me that, that did just that the boundary of, or the thinking about like the boundaries that the pandemic kind of imposed on me was less that I left to thinking like, oh, I should be hanging out less with people. I'm pretty good at like, holding time in my calendar that like, I, you know, or at least like my story that I tell myself is I don't do things that I don't like to do. I, um, still have like, like I have, you know, like I have days that are like not social days and like all of that stuff, but again, like that was a story that I told myself and I was like, does it really stack up against like how I am spending my time and how I'm communicating that? And I think, you know, there is also the sense of like, there are people that, um, it's easier to hold boundaries with than not. Like, I think that, like for me, the thing that I learned was, oh, actually like in a professional context or people, I don't know very well, very good at communicating that, how am I doing that with people who are intimate with me? And that was like a very different situation. And I was just surprised by that, where I was like, oh, I just, the, the story that I tell myself is, oh, no, no, no, like I'm really good at like X, Y, Z. And then it turns out, oh, actually I'm full like a people pleaser all the time. And I didn't know that. And, uh, you know, and I think also the other thing is realizing too, that it's okay to change your mind, because part of also what happens is that you can be one way in the world and then decide that you don't want to be that way anymore. You wants to do something else and, you know, like is kind of your, how does your environment respond to that? And I think that that is extremely hard. If you are someone who goes from like, you know, it's like kind of like you show up all the time and you're there. And then all of a sudden you're like, Hmm, I need some like alone time where I'm trying to like work on something else or, um, for like health reasons or whatever. I, you need to set back changing your dynamic to the world. And especially like to the people that you relate to everyday, that is like, that's extremely hard, you know? And, and I think like the other thing too, that this is making me think of is also just how so much of like, dealing with Coronavirus itself is actually a conversation about boundaries. It was never really, for me, at least it was never really like, please don't infect me. It was always like, oh, how are we communicating around what our expectations are about this? And anytime that I had, um, any kind of like interpersonal conflict about it, which I weirdly did not have a lot of, but anytime that it cropped up, or I would notice like my irritation at like, you know, someone's scolding someone else, or people just like participating in the COVID discourse. I was like, oh, what's happening here for me actually is I do not like the way that we either that boundaries are being communicated or the ways that even when someone communicates a boundary, we are very dismissive of them. In that sense, too, it was just like a huge learning curve because in interpersonal relationships, the fight is never like, please don't give me coronavirus. For me. It was less that. And it was more about like, hi, I'm telling you that I'm not comfortable about X, Y, Z. And at the end of the day, like everyone loves each other and we do want to spend time together and we want to see each other, but how do we like really navigate that? And that like proved to be really tough because again, like everyone has different boundaries. Everyone has different expectations. And, uh, it just sucks that everything is like solved through communication. And it's the only way to do that. But it also like made me think, I was like, well, you know, like, how do you expect a society that has bad boundaries around like sex and STDs to have like good boundaries around like the flu and like coronavirus, like, of course, like all of these things are interrelated. And also like, it is like extremely hard, even if you are someone who is very confident and, um, you know, like you think that you're very adept at like communicating your wants and your needs. It is really hard to be constantly doing, doing that. And it's also hard to be doing that with a new constraint that you're kind of like not really adept or used to. And I think you also have to remember that having good communication or good boundaries in one relationship or one area of life does not necessarily translate to another relationship or another area of life. And again, it's like a constant retelling and a constant renegotiation.
Ann: Yeah. And I also think about how, um, you know, as I hear you say that, like one of the kindest things that like people I love have done for me is helped me hold a boundary. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, because as you say, boundaries can shift it's on each individual to kind of communicate that, like, no one is going to know that your priorities or your needs have changed unless you articulate it. But like once you have like one like amazing way to exist in community with people is to not make them say it over and over again. Or like, remember where that boundary is or ask them if, if, and how you can support them in maintaining it. And that's something where like, I dunno, it's, it's, it's fully not discussed in this conversation that is, that so often focuses on like, what are you doing as an individual to like, protect yourself? I think that, you know, it is part of being in community with people. It is part of being a close and like active friend. It is part of being in, in pretty much any kind of productive, healthy relationship is like, you know, not relying on someone to kind of tell you over and over again, what they need or want from the world. If it's something that you can actively help them maintain.
Aminatou: Yeah. You know, and I, I'm thinking also just back to the, the Oprah quote itself, like “No is a complete sentence,” which obviously in like these really big ways, I think we all understand that, but a place that I have been thinking about that quote a lot and really challenging myself a lot on is when it's less about like politics or like, you know, like big P politics. And it's less about, um, you know, like being in a social movement with people, or even just, you know, like how, like a really big clear, like, please respect to my personal space or whatever, and thinking about it more in these like quiet moments of life where either like, it happens to me, or I find myself like challenging other people, because what they want is not the same desire that I have, like a very, like a source of very low level conflict that always really amuses me because in some aspects, at least it always presents to me as very racialized. You know, like the, like how the meme is always that, like, if you invite a Black person somewhere, they're always gonna say like, who all is going to be there, which is a thing that like, white people never do. Like according to the meme and the stereotype, but stereotypes are like rooted in truth. [laughter] That's why they're, that's why they're there. But it's like a really small, like, source of like, like conflict and, and funny thing. It's like, when you really want to hang out someone, but you're not like super psyched about being in community with like the rest of their community or you just like, don't want to be at a thing that everyone that you love is that, which is like often like a, uh, not a extrovert, like a little like source of drama and conflict and how, like, I always thought about that as a really funny like, oh, please, it's like, everyone just wants to be together. Like, you know, like whatever, just like do, like everyone should show up all the time and it's true. It's like, we should show up for people. You should, like, you should push yourself a little more than you want you to like, be around people that you love and et cetera, et cetera. But I, the reason that like that always makes me laugh is because it's like, oh yeah, this also goes back to socialization. It's like, who is like, why would, why would the stereotype be that like Black people are that way? And I was like, oh yeah. It's because like, oftentimes you pay the social price for like, just being in environments that you don't want to be in and very unpleasant ways. And so like about hyper-vigilance I was like, okay, there's like a, there is a social reason that the hypervigilance is there. There is a vibes reason that the hyper vigilance is there. And then even if you remove like all of the, like not to make everything about race all the time, um, but making it about, um, people who are extroverted and people who are not, um, I think a lot about like, how so, so often, like this conversation really is about mental health and it's just someone saying to you like, oh, like this just makes me anxious, you know? And it's like, if you could frame it that way, like, oh, it makes me anxious when like groups are like this, or when a dynamic is like that, or when I don't control XYZ, something that like, I confess to like, even though I am, I am someone who identifies with that a lot, I still roll my eyes. A lot of that attitude, even though like it's fully me and just being like, okay, like, if you could, if I could frame that as like a true, like mental health boundary and, um, and a desire to like not have a loss of a sense of control, it is a very different conversation than just like, oh, I don't want to be around like XYZ, or I don't want you to do this activity. Or, and I don't want to do that thing because it really is like, what is the feeling behind the feeling? Or like rather, like, what is the fear behind the feeling? And I think that like really having to articulate your boundary is like also forces you to do that. It's really confronting, like, what are the things that you were afraid of and what are other ways to like, deal with that? And sometimes it's a very clear, like a boundary is a boundary and you have to have it there, there are things that we should all have boundaries for. And a lot of times it is just a signal about something, um, that can be worked out in another way. But you have to like, get to what the fear is before you can address it at all.
Ann: I feel like that brings up a question for me about how do you find a boundary or like, how do you sense where a boundary needs to be? And, um, I know we're due for a little break, so maybe we can take a break and talk about that when we come back.
Aminatou: I need a break, a boundary. So goodbye.
Ann: I need an advertising boundary.
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Ann: Okay. But seriously, how do you, how do you know, like, like, is there a feeling you get when you're like, there's a boundary that needs to be here? Or like, what is the info that you use to set a boundary?
Aminatou: You know, um, shout out to mental illness. One thing that is very apparent for me, it's like, if something is making me anxious, then I, obviously it should be, you know, like there should be a boundary around that. So like actual, like manifestation of anxiety. And that is, you know, it's like a, it's like, you always say, it's like, listen to your body, or what is your body telling you? And I think that sometimes, like, you know, it's like, if you are, your heart races or you can feel yourself like getting sick, or there's a thing in the pit of your stomach over like something that you're supposed to do, that's probably a thing to listen to. You know what I mean? Or if you feel a certain kind of way, when you are in a certain situation, that's something to listen to. I think also like if something like really lets you feel drained, not that like a routine kind of drained of like, okay, I gotta reply. I got to recharge my batteries and then that'll be fun again. But the true, like every time I leave this particular kind of situation or interaction or whatever, I just am completely spent, that is also something to pay attention to. And also just like general feelings of like, unsatisfaction. It's like, what was that like really worth time and effort and being somewhere. Because again, like going back to socialization, I think it's fair to say. Not that everything has to be a stereotype, but I think it's fair to say that like most women generally are, um, are socialized to just like sacrifice a lot and to give a lot. It's like you let other people like have their desires, like heard and said over yours, however that manifests or, or rather like, it presents as a little selfish to like, want to like center yourself in like basically like how you spend your time and your, um, and how you are around people. And I was like, well, you know, like, should we be listening to society or should we be listening to what our bodies and our minds are telling us about the kinds of situations that we're in, right? I'm like, this is the scam of society. Everyone, if you are like beholden to obligation all of the time, and that's what you're listening to, the chances are that like, you're never going to be happy, but also you will be put in situations that you really don't want to be in and who does the obligation serve? And a lot of times it does not serve you the individual and that's okay to reevaluate that.
Ann: Ah yeah. Listening to you talk, I realized like how much of my own boundary practice has sort of been informed by and honed by self-employment in recent years. And like, I know we talk about that a lot on this podcast, but like it, um, it, it has really forced me in this one area of my life to be like, what do I have enough time and energy to do well? And I don't mean like do well into like, to like some external standard, but like do well, meaning like, can I feel like I'm learning here? I am like, you know, this is a good use of my time professionally. Like, this is a productive collaboration where like, you know, like everyone who's involved is like bringing something to the table. I don't know, like all the criteria I use to evaluate what kind of work things I want to do. Um, I realized that I kind of seamlessly have applied a lot of that in other areas of my life. You know, not that it's perfect because I agree with what you said earlier that like, boundaries are not necessarily transferable, but there is something about the practice of just knowing like, okay, like if I get this specific twinge in my stomach, when I read about a work opportunity, that means I pretty much have to say no, unless like, I desperately need this money right now. You know, like little things like that. And like, then I can pay attention to that feeling in other contexts. Like, I think I, um, I dunno, I'm really grateful that like, I have had that as a practice space because like, you know, the, like obviously I've had bad work experiences, which is how I've developed the boundaries. Right. It's like, it's like, you know, I've learned that if I have this feeling, it's because something about the assignment is like, you know, I don't agree with the premise of it or something about the way, you know, an editor or potential collaborator approaches me is something I don't like. Or like, I don't know. Like it helps me like start to ask the kinds of questions that I need to ask. And for some reason, for me, I mean, I'm sure people like are confronted with boundary questions all the time who have staff jobs. But like, for me, there's something about like the, the real privilege of being able to kind of pick collaborators project by project that has taught me a lot about where my personal boundaries are.
Aminatou: I really love you saying that because I feel very similarly. And I think something that is like probably running in tandem with that, it's also just like getting a little older, you know, where I'm getting, let's talk about once you get older, but you know what I mean? I was like, what is the point of hindsight? If it's not to be the fool that used to be when I think about, yeah. Especially like in a work context, when I think about like, you know, bad boundaries I had or whatever, I don't beat myself up for it. I'm like, no, no. Like there are times where you have to take the work for money. Like, especially if you are freelance, there are times where yeah. It's like, you, you do things that you don't necessarily want to do. And that's also the point about like, starting out. I think that where, um, I am trying to be really just hold myself accountable, is that if I'm doing something that I don't love to do, or I'm doing it for a clear purpose, like, okay, this is to level up, or this is so I can pay rent or this is whatever. When I reach that next level, I really have to hold myself accountable to being like, okay, new level new boundaries, because what is the point of working so hard? And I'm like instituting all these systems and doing all of that. If it's just a fall back into the trap of being on the treadmill that you used to be. Right. So there was like truly no shame in everyone has to start somewhere. Everyone has to, you just have to like do the thing even if, especially if you're like changing careers or if you're starting out. But I think that like having just a periodic check-in, that's like, okay, like after every project or after every thing, like, even with us, when we finished writing the book and we like went on the book tour, like really just asking yourself like saying, okay, like, here's how that went. Like, here's what I'm taking from this. And here is where, like, I will not do that thing again. Or I would not like to be in situations that are XYZ. And I think that that is the kind of accountability that like I need to have with myself, because otherwise, truly, like, what is the point? What is the point I was just doing, um, of doing the work that you say you want to do if it's not to create like a different situation for yourself and, you know, and also like so much of having good boundaries, if, when they're not just about like reclaiming your own time. For me, they're about like being a more productive member of my community and a more like giving member of my community. And so, you know, I'm just like, I am not being accountable to myself or to my people, if I am not learning from, uh, from all of these lessons on how to be more present and how to like ruthlessly protecting my time and my energy, because at the end of the day, like, you know, we all have the 24 Beyonce hours, you can't know every single human being, but you'd like the people that you do know, and that you love in the world, that you're a part of, for me, at least like the question always is like, how am I my best self here? And one of the ways that I am my best self there is when I protect these other areas of life so that I can really show up. So I don't know it's, this is also making me think, like, hearing you talk about work, um, you know, I've been thinking a lot about, um, a lot of these like Gen Z athletes and how they have been like, so crucial about having a conversation about mental, about mental health. Um, I'm not watching the Olympics because, um, what a flop it is on NBC's part to be like, uh, you're gonna read about the Olympics in a different time zone, but please tune in at prime time to watch this. I'm like, first of all, nobody has cable. Second of all, this is so dumb. We've all had social media for so long. And also the bygone era of just like thinking that it's like, who watches the Olympics for America? First of all, like no one else in the world does so grow up. Um, and also the, also like the Olympics are a flop and we should stop supporting them in general. We should stop supporting them in general, but I've been really, really, really emotional over the conversation that, like, you know, Simone Biles is having at the Olympics. And I'm thinking about like, Naomi Osaka, like withdrawing from press conference at the French Open in tennis and where it's like these women who are, you know, like talk about being ambitious people, ambitious high achievers who do like feats of athleticism that, um, none of us are capable of really saying like, okay, I don't have to like, uh, die for the sport and I don't have to die for the entertainment of someone else or for the sponsorships or for like just the X, like a billion people are watching, I should do this. And they're just like really protecting their, their like minds and their time and their space. And of course it's like a not lost on me that there are young women of color who are having this conversation. The backlash has been so epic and just like evil. Like I was watching, um, someone sent me a tweet about Piers Morgan, like wrote a piece about house vials as a quitter. And I was like Piers Morgan, whose only feat of athleticism was huffing and puffing away from his own TV set when someone challenged him a little bit that like that Piers Morgan? I don't think so, you know, like just being like, oh, like this person quit or whatever. And really, and obviously like sports is such a good vehicle and such a good lens for understanding those stories. But I was like, first of all, like, there's nothing wrong with quitting and we should stop teaching children that you should not be a quitter, please normalize quitting people should quit. And also, um, getting to the height of your sport and saying, Hey, actually, I'm just going to take a mental health day at the office today. That's not quitting. So let's like, let's get that straight. But I'm just so impressed with this generation of athletes because, you know, like, yeah, it's like talk about high pressure. I was like, I'm not living in a high pressure cocoon over here. And I, you know, and I, and sometimes I feel like I do. And I was like, I don't know what the pressure of like every single advertiser and TV network and whatever is like telling you that if you don't show up at work today, the Olympics are going to be ruined. I don't know that I don't know how to experience that pressure at 24 and to watch like Simone Biles really be like, hmm, actually, like I know myself and I know my body and, uh, and I'm not going to die for the sport. And also a PS, I’ve given a lot to the sport. So, uh, like take that, watching that in that arena where it was like, wow, like we are cutting no, like we're giving these women like so much pushback. Of course the rest of us are feeling it in our lives as well. Like we're just like, so epically bad at this as a society. And I'm really, I'm just hoping that we were all taking note here and not truly, like, it does get better for like the generation that comes after these kids. And then it keeps being a part of a conversation because it's just like the pressure that we put on, like on ourselves. So untenable, and then just the shame and the like, fear that we make people feel when they just like very much like voice out loud that they don't feel safe or they do not feel physically or mentally well, or they just feel not capable of doing something the one time that we need them to do it. It's, it's just completely untenable and it should not happen.
Ann: I mean, it is really indicative of how, like any kind of rest, or I don't even want to say self care, but like any kind of like, um, break or pause or acknowledgement that like maybe pushing ahead, 24/7 is not tenable is viewed as a form of failure. Like it's like if you're not expanding and growing and trying to achieve it's a backward step is like such a pervasive mentality. And, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about how there's like this, like classic, like asking like a champion athlete, like, what are you going to do now that you've won? And, you know, and the, the, the standard answers are like, joking, like I'm going to Disneyland now, but like, not really, right. Like the, the expectation is like, okay, what is your next giant goal that you're working toward? And it plays out in, in, you know, like those of us who are not world-class athletes, interpersonally where, I mean, I'm thinking about myself and when is the last time that a friend of mine told me that they had leveled up in some way personally or professionally. And I was like, amazing, what new boundaries are you setting? You know, I know, you know, it's really hard to kind of like, um, also reinforce this idea that part of success is being like in a position of being better able to care for yourself and not just setting some new, next higher goal.
Aminatou: Yeah. I mean, we're, yeah. We're fully living in hunger games, you know what I mean? Like, and the Olympics is hunger games. It's like hunger games and yeah. And it's just, you're, you're so right about that, because what's the point of working so hard if you don't even get to rest, you know, and that's the scam of capitalism, you're just supposed to work hard and then you're supposed to work harder. Also normalized, normalized, failing. Failing is totally okay. It's, uh, it's okay to fail. You can't do it right all the time. And also, um, you actually learn a lot from failure and it's okay. And a lot of people fail and we should not be shaming them for it. But yeah, I'm both like, just so like, none of this is new to me, but I think that just seeing it on this again, like hunger games, like world class, you know, like, uh, like stage, seeing that play out just for sports, it makes me like really disappointed in us as a people. And it also makes me very scared because if you cannot cut some slack to the people who literally give us entertainment for days by like using and abusing their body and just like, awe and wonder us, like, what kind of slack are we going to cut to just like civilians. And I'm not sure.
Ann: All I want is more slack for civilians. That is really like, if I were running for office, that would be my campaign slogan, Slack for Civilians.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's um, the whole, the whole thing is just like so wild, but anyway, yes, it's like a normalized rest, normalized failing, uh, normalized asking your friends, uh, how they are going to set better boundaries whenever they level up and, you know, like really hold each other accountable for this stuff. Because you know, the other thing too, I think that's so like front of mind for me right now is that, you know, like we're all having this conversation about like, oh, like my ambition is dead and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, is that true? Is it that ambition is dying? Or is it that the ambition you were told you were supposed to have, you are realizing actually is not possible because, you know, cause like, cause yeah, it's like every time I talked to a woman who was like, yeah, I, I like, I don't want to do that thing anymore. My ambitions dead, or I'm doing this other thing, I was like, yeah, but you still have like hopes and dreams and you still have goals, you know? And, and I think that the way that I really try to frame it for myself, if that in order to accomplish some of the things that I want to accomplish, I really have to relinquish like living life on other people's terms because it's just not possible. Like you cannot, you cannot live like in a way where, um, you are just like following the script for what everyone says that you're doing. First of all, um, if those people could do it themselves, they would do it. It's like, why are we all listening to other people have, um, hopes and dreams and plans for us. They can't do it. So it's how you know that it's all fake. But also I think, you know, it's like, this is the part of like getting a little older and having some hindsight and having some self knowledge where you realize that every time you trust yourself, even a tiny bit, even a tiny bit, when you trust yourself, it always turns out better than when you trust everyone else. And I think that, that's the thing that I'm like willing to like, like I will die. I will die like believing them. That's true. Hmm. It was like instinctively, like everyone knows like kind of what is best to for them. And where it gets really dicey is when we there all these expectations and obligations that are set on us. And so again, like, you know, my hat goes off to these like, uh, to these athletes because they are really bucking the system and they are doing it like in the face of a lot of capitalism and a lot of racism and a lot of sexism. And, um, you know, and I was like, they have real stakes. It's like, if Simone Biles can do it, like who am I not to take like 30 extra minutes a week to just say like, okay, I'm not going to take a call today.
Ann: Ugh. I know. I, I really, I just, I have nothing to add to that. I really am. You're just making me want to hang up and go get a snack and take 30 extra minutes, hang up and go get a snack.
Aminatou: Let's hang up and go get a snack. I am going to get a, I'm going to get a beveragino, you know, and I'm going to lay on the floor cause I've had a long day today. I love to hear it. I'm going to have toast with a tomato on it.
Aminatou: Toast with a tomato sounds so good. Um, you know, you're lucky that we live in different cities because I would a hundred percent violate your boundary by showing up at your doorstep for that sandwich right now. So, wow.
Ann: Listen, I have no snack boundaries when it comes to you. I have no snack boundaries with you, my friend, like that has been proven time and time again. So it is not a violation. I welcome you spiritually. If not actually come, share this tomato toast with me.
Aminatou: Oh my gosh. My queen, my queen Ann Friedman as always, you are the best. I will see you on the internet. Turn on your, do not disturb and enjoy your sandwich.
Ann: Ugh. It's happening. All right, I'll see you on the internet.
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Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf. Our producer is Jordan Bailey and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.