Straight Shame
6/4/14 - Techie backlash, caftan appreciation, why America is the best country for black people, Kardashian family values, faking it, myths of chillness, self-loathing straight people, and hippie remedies. Plus! A defense of rom-coms from Vulture writer Lindsey Weber.
Transcript below.
Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.
CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
LINKS
You didn’t read that reparations article and here’s how we know
The plural of beef
Devastating “Blended” review LOL
TRANSCRIPT: STRAIGHT SHAME
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou.
Ann: I'm Ann.
Aminatou: Hello?
Ann: Can you hear me?
Aminatou: Hello?
[Theme Song]
(0:25)
Ann: We talk about current events.
Aminatou: We talk about current events, friendship, Beyonce and politics.
Ann: Pretty much in that order, and we have an agenda. We have sort of an agenda that we used to set, or maybe we do still set for our personal check-in calls and we've just made it the agenda for this podcast save for a few deletions to preserve our privacy. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Yes, privacy is very important to us.
Ann: It wouldn't appear that way but it is.
Aminatou: In this era of high Snowden bullshit it's very important.
Ann: Are you one of those people who has a piece of tape over the camera on your laptop?
Aminatou: 100%. I donate to the EFF, Ann. Of course.
Ann: I don't have one but I just relish being extra gross in front of it. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I mean I have it mostly because I don't want any of my friends doing dumb shit. If the NSA wants to hack into this computer God bless.
Ann: Right, God speed. So we're like extra -- well, not extra long-distance. Slightly extra long-distance this time because I'm in London and you are in New York.
Aminatou: Yeah, how's London going?
Ann: Let me tell you it is grey. I know I should've expected . . .
Aminatou: I heard you guys were having like, I don't know, like a heat wave? I think it was 71 degrees? What's going on?
Ann: It was sunny for like two days in a row but that was kind of an aberration. But here's what I don't understand, it's like there's not . . . I feel like if I lived here permanently I would be obsessed with things that made me feel like it's sunny and warm. So all these cafes have sandwich boards outside that say "Come in, it's sunny inside," and it's like uh . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(2:10)
Ann: Actually you're playing Radiohead and your WiFi doesn't work. That is not my definition of sunny inside.
Aminatou: Oh my god. WiFi also doesn't work in Brooklyn. I don't know what to tell you. I keep saying this to people and I feel that someone's going to get mad at me but it's true. It's like I have lived in Sudan and we had better Wi-Fi than we have in south Brooklyn. I don't understand.
Ann: When I say the Internet is bad here I mean it's not as bad as Brooklyn. Nothing is worse than Wi-Fi in Brooklyn.
Aminatou: Thank you. Thank you for acknowledging it. Ugh, it's the worst.
Ann: I've been around the world and nothing is worse than the Wi-Fi in Brooklyn. [Laughs]
Aminatou: It just does not work.
Ann: We should get you a sat phone or something.
Aminatou: I'm just -- yeah, I've just given up. I don't know what's going on in the world anymore because there's just bad Wi-Fi. Anyway, well I have a little bit of news: I'm moving to San Francisco, Ann.
Ann: I -- okay, I confess I learned this before we recorded this podcast.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: However I will express to you in person again both how proud I am of you because you're moving for an incredible new job but also my shock because I never thought you would be on the west coast with me.
Aminatou: You know, so here are my feelings about this. I am obviously excited about my new job. I am very trepedatious about my new location. San Francisco? I'm a little weirded out about it. One, you know, who knows? Maybe I won't even move because we can't afford to live there. Hello? The rent is stupid.
Ann: The rent is too damn high?
Aminatou: The rent is too damn high. Like that's not even funny to me because I'm in the middle of house hunting right now.
Ann: But think of all the apps that you get to use that are only available in San Francisco. There's like a whole subcategory of apps.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Like location-specific applications.
(3:55)
Ann: Totally. It's like we've launched in San Francisco and are planning to launch in two more cities as soon as we get eight more rounds of funding. You can try all those apps.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, and also I think . . . I guess since we both lived in D.C. this is the first time I'll live in a city where I work in the dominant industry again and that has me a little worried.
Ann: It's tough. This is why it's tough for me to visit New York, dominant industry problems. No one ever talks about that.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I think you have way more problems in New York than dominant industry but let's -- we'll address that. [Laughs] You know, I'm excited. I don't want to sound like a baby about it. I'm also super excited. But also I'm sad about leaving New York, like Brooklyn is my spiritual home. Any time I told anybody I was leaving because I got this fancy new job, instead of saying "Hey, congratulations Amina, well done," people are like "No! Don't move! The west coast is awful."
Ann: Well and now you're getting to the root of my New York problems, everything's all about you all the time.
Aminatou: I know. I'm like this is why you people are my people. Thank you. Make it about yourself; don't make it about me.
Ann: [Laughs] Yeah. I mean it's also -- I feel like it's going to affect our friendship to be in the same timezone because you stay up three hours later than I do because our friendship is a natural east/west coast fit but when we're both on the west coast I'm going to have to stay up later.
Aminatou: It's definitely going to be interesting. What is -- oh yeah, it's like that GIF where Snooki and Jwoww are like "It's going to be an interesting summer." That's how I feel.
Ann: Also we are just barely close enough that I can decide to come see you on a whim and drive my dented sedan six hours to the north and actually see you. That's very exciting.
Aminatou: Oh my god, it's going to be so fun. You know, I'm excited for that. Also I'm kind of my best person when the weather is warm and it's nice, so who knows? Maybe I'll become one of those smug Californians. I have no clue.
Ann: Ooh, good callback to the pilot episode. [Laughs]
(6:00)
Aminatou: Listen, smug Californians is a theme in my life.
Ann: I know, but this is good. It's like summer camp. You're going to learn some things about yourself, you're going to meet some new friends, you know? Learn some new skills.
Aminatou: Yeah. [Laughs] I'm just so scared about making work friends too. I generally -- my rule is to not make work friends because I have a lot of other friends and work friends are a little complicated. But also I guess I'm just . . . I've just usually been managing over a ton of people and so I don't want to deal with that. But this is no longer true, and also I work with smart people. Maybe I'll make friends this time. Maybe I won't be a weirdo.
Ann: Are you allowed to say what your job is? I feel like we're making it very mysterious by not talking about it.
Aminatou: Yeah. So I'm going to be an astronaut at SpaceX. [Laughter] Absolutely not.
Ann: Tampons in space?
Aminatou: No, I'm just working at dumb marketing job at a big tech place. That's how mysterious we'll make my job. You can email me for details.
Ann: Oh my god, that's totally how people -- assholes who went to Harvard and are like "I went to a small private liberal arts college in Cambridge," like saying "I'm working at a large tech company in San Francisco." It's the same thing.
Aminatou: It's just there's a lot of backlash against techies, Ann. I don't want to get stoned.
Ann: I won't lie, I'm feeling like very protective of you going to San Francisco to join the many, many much maligned tech working ranks. Like I'm like, I don't know, very protective of your reputation.
Aminatou: I know. You know, I feel that way too but also I'm like this is everything Martin Luther King died for. If somebody makes me feel shitty about this I will literally take it to the Supreme Court, like you cannot hate crime me because I work in tech. That's ludicrous.
Ann: That's true. Getting yours, cashing in.
Aminatou: It's true. Yeah, cashing in. Let's see, we'll buy -- we can finally buy our lady compound.
(8:02)
Ann: Depending on your rent that is.
Aminatou: After we've sorted out how many pennies we have from rent we'll buy our lady compound.
Ann: Oh man, so speaking of lady compounds when we first started talking about doing this podcast we wanted to do a segment and we briefly considered doing a whole podcast called Appreesh, just things we appreesh.
Aminatou: I know. Ugh, the positive days in our lives.
Ann: It's good, staying posi. But one from the past week is we are both long-term proponents of the caftan, the moomoo, it goes by many names, all of them wonderful for a long-flowing garment you wear around the house or outside the house that just sort of lets it all be free in the breeze. One of my sort of coworkers at The Cut, at New York Magazine, wrote this amazing appreciation of the caftan and how to get your body caftan-ready for summer that is just the most appreesh-worthy thing of what has been a semi-difficult week of news.
Aminatou: I know, right? Which we plan our entire lives around wearing caftans so obviously we're the core target of that whole article. But I love that. I just love that there are women in I guess the western world who wear caftans because caftans are my cultural heritage and there was never anything newsworthy about wearing them. And I won't lie, when I moved I was a little hesitant to wear them in the beginning because people were like what a weirdo, like what is this box that you're wearing? Like sack dress. And now they're everywhere. Thank you.
Ann: Yeah, this is a clear issue of just white people were wrong for centuries about caftans. [Laughs]
Aminatou: White people were wrong about a lot of things but the caftan thing is particularly egregious.
Ann: I mean because it would advantage, you know, centuries of white people to let it all hang out under a flowing garment.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And it's like the most self-interested thing which normally white people are all about and . . .
Aminatou: How many caftans do you own, Ann?
Ann: Oh my god, I own so many. When I was trying to pack for the desert, we do an annual trip to the desert every winter with a bunch of ladies where caftan wearing is not mandatory but encouraged and my friend Laura was at my house watching me pack and I just kept finding hidden caches of caftans in corners of my closet and under the bed and stuffed in the back of drawers. Oh man, on the streets of London a few weeks ago I passed a woman wearing a Frida Kahlo caftan.
Aminatou: Stop it.
(10:34)
Ann: It was like a full-size Frida Kahlo self portrait on the caftan, and the back was already glorious and then I turned around to kind of, you know, do the lady outfit checkout, like give her the eye, and I saw it was a Kahlo portrait and I almost was muerto in the park right there.
Aminatou: That's perfect.
Ann: Yeah, so good.
Aminatou: Every once in a while though you get a caftan that you know a white lady made because it's so preposterous.
Ann: Tell me. Like how? What's the tell?
Aminatou: The tell is like pearls on them, and I don't understand the jeweling in dumb places of caftans. Like I have this one, it has jewels strategically where your vagina is.
Ann: No! Why do you have that?
Aminatou: Because it's so soft! [Laughs] It's just . . . you know, I try to not wear it outside the house. I try to not wear it around anytime anybody I want to get sexy with, but I will not lie, when it's just me and myself that caftan is embarrassing as fuck but it's so comfortable.
Ann: I mean I think this brings us to a conversation about reparations.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Oh my god, did you read that? Did you read Ta-Nehisi Coates' reparations article?
Ann: Obviously the entire Internet read Ta-Nehisi's cover story.
Aminatou: Well, you know, it's debatable that the entire Internet read it because we're also going to talk about faking cultural literacy later, but . . .
(11:52)
Ann: Right. How many words do you think most of the Internet made it into? I actually don't know how long the piece was in total.
Aminatou: I believe it was 16,000 words.
Ann: Average reader went how deep do you think?
Aminatou: I think, you know, like one page and then they were like oh my god this is so tiring.
Ann: I read it and felt like I wanted to give it to baby Ann, like I wanted to tuck it in all my history textbooks from when I was a kid because I feel like it's sort of like yeah, I had read everything in that article elsewhere just never synthesized in quite that way which is a great -- a sign of a great piece of journalism obviously. But I was just like yeah, that's what a history textbook is supposed to do, like synthesize all of this stuff and give you a shorthand for understanding the way the modern world is and I just wanted to carpet bomb elementary schools with it.
Aminatou: No, I think that that's . . . no, right? I think you make this really interesting point. There's this woman historian who I follow on Twitter who I won't name her here because LOL sub-tweets. She was kind of a little frustrated, she was like ugh, why is Ta-Nehisi Coates making this point that if you are a semi-educated person you should already know and everybody is rah-rah excited about it? And I think that that's a real tragedy, right, that none of this is new and none of it is super . . . none of it is super shocking and yet most people are just not aware of the history of slavery, the history of Jim Crowe and red-lining and any of that stuff which just blows my mind. Like where the fuck have you been?
Ann: Or people might say I'm familiar with all of these things, obviously I know all of these things happened, but the idea that they might have had a cumulative effect has seemed to escape people and that's the real power of this essay. I was wondering because, you know, you obviously didn't go through the totally inadequate fucked-up American history lessons that I went through in an American classroom how much of this was actually new to you or how much of it was like oh yeah, duh?
(14:05)
Aminatou: So I didn't learn any of this stuff in high school because duh, I went to French school and the only thing you learn about America in French school starts at World War I probs. Oh yeah, and you learn that they stole Louisiana from us. It's a tragedy.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: That's like the big tragedy of French history.
Ann: Do the French really want Louisiana though? Like now? Let's be real.
Aminatou: The French don't know anything. [Laughs] I'm going to go on the record, just facts. Yeah. It's like you don't really learn a lot about America. We do a lot of American geography weirdly in the 20th century and then it's like World War I and II in America is huge. Also the Kennedy chapter is just too long. I'm like I don't understand why we're studying this for so long.
Ann: That's true in American textbooks as well, like you would think that . . .
Aminatou: I know, but in the French context it makes no sense. It makes like absolutely no sense.
Ann: I just assumed it was because most American textbooks were written in the late '60s, published in the '70s, and I was still reading them when I was a kid in the late '80s and '90s.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: It's like oh yeah, Kennedy seemed really important at the time you were writing this which is like when my parents were children.
Aminatou: Yeah, no, right? Totally. So I didn't learn -- I didn't know anything about US history or definitely slavery or a lot of the civil rights movement until I got to college and I think we had US history requirements and I didn't have any of them because I went to an international school and I had to learn. And, you know, the people were shocked, like I was shocked.
Ann: Were you like I can't believe I've immigrated to this country?
Aminatou: You know, I'm not going to say that because I think my family was living in Belgium right before I moved to the US and America for all of its faults is the best country you can live in if you're a black person. Black people, believe me, it is terrible out there.
Ann: Bold statement. Bold statement.
(16:00)
Aminatou: No, it's so true. You know, I've told you this. My family is not super psyched that I live here because they're like ugh, when are you coming home? Like home being Europe writ large. They just don't understand that I can't handle it anymore. Like living in Europe is a thing. It's very cute and it's quaint for a little but but I don't think that long-term it's something I could do for many, many, many reasons.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Yeah, you know, it's like America, it's awful but it's also maybe the only country that went through a civil rights movement so it's like hi, we're on the other side of that. In Paris people say awful things to me on the street and it's like hello, it's the 21st century.
Ann: Like too real to ask what?
Aminatou: I mean, yeah, I don't think I have a good recent example. Oh, no, so in Brussels where my family lives for example getting on the bus in my neighborhood that is predominantly Dutch is a big hassle. It's like if I'm the only person at the bus stop I would say eight out of ten times the bus doesn't stop.
Ann: Ugh.
Aminatou: And I'm just like really? Really? Who cares? But it's also this really complicated thing, right? Because that's because I present as an African person if I speak French. But if I speak English they assume that I'm American and French-speaking people at least are obsessed with African-Americans. It's so weird.
Ann: Really?
Aminatou: Yes, you are like this evolved kind of black person as opposed to an African person. I would say that a little bit is true of the reverse here.
Ann: Wow. I mean also I just feel like I am more aware of racial politics being in Europe because it's just different than the racial politics I've grown up around, you know what I mean?
Aminatou: Yeah.
Ann: And I wonder how much of that is like oh, this is like . . . it's oh, I'm sick of dealing with that set of problems. Here's a different shitty situation that's kind of similar but is not frustrating in exactly the same ways. Sometimes it's like, I don't know, you have more energy to deal with the same problem but manifested differently.
(18:08)
Aminatou: Yeah, it's strange. So our -- somebody else that we know, Gene Demby, wrote that thing at NPR that I thought was really funny that is how to tell if someone you know actually read Ta-Nehisi's essay. [Laughs]
Ann: Oh my god, I missed this. Give me the gist.
Aminatou: Oh my god, it was so good. He was like number one, they talk a lot about slavery. Number two, they talk a lot about the logistics of reparations. And number three, they talk about affirmative action or hashtag welfare and I'm like I see you. You did not read this. I see you New Republic people. You did not read this.
Ann: Right. You missed that whole welfare was created for white people thing.
Aminatou: You know, to quote our friend Kanye, you know white people.
Ann: Ugh.
[Music and Ads]
(20:35)
Ann: I mean speaking of Kanye and speaking of France . . .
Aminatou: Speaking of Kanye and France. [Laughter] Do you want to talk about the wedding? Is this what you want to talk about?
Ann: I mean I don't really want to talk about it. The only thing that I want to bring up about the Kimye wedding is how old-person the choice of Florence seemed. Like I feel like if you asked my parents and their friends "What would be a really romantic wedding destination?" or, I don't know . . . they would sort of choose a similar location to Kim and Kanye.
Aminatou: I mean, listen, I can't hate on it because I can't afford a 2.5 million dollar wedding in a chateau. You know, can't shit on that.
Ann: Yet. Can't afford it yet.
Aminatou: Can't afford it yet. When I live in San Francisco after I've made rent at my astronaut job maybe I can afford this. I don't know, I thought the whole thing was really funny and over-the-top. Personally I enjoyed this wedding experience better than Kim's first wedding. No offense Kim's first husband. Well, much offense. But, you know . . .
Ann: I paid even less attention that wedding.
Aminatou: I just think it's hilarious that celebrities get married just like us. You know, by trolling all of their friends' Instagrams I was able to recreate the whole thing for myself. Like I think that is hilarious.
Ann: What was their hashtag? Did they have a hashtag?
Aminatou: I don't think they had a hashtag. [Laughs]
Ann: Kimye forever.
Aminatou: Kimye forever. You know, I love that they had a photo booth. I love how weirdly traditional the whole thing is. I would give an arm and a leg to hear like Kanye's wedding toast.
Ann: Oh my god, the 20-minute wedding toast?
(22:20)
Aminatou: Yeah. I'm hoping that like Chrissy Teigen or somebody definitely taped it and it's going to leak one day. Like there's nothing I want more than that.
Ann: I hope somebody "I'm going to let you finish"ed him. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Ugh, I just . . . I just also, you know, I wonder who Kanye's friends are, right? I'm just like who is on his side besides like Big Sean and, you know, I don't know, designers? It just makes me feel sad and I realized that may be part of why he's so into the Kardashians is because they're a family.
Ann: It is true. I mean I'm trying to think about -- this is not my area of expertise. Like I've never been good at beef or the opposite of beef. [Laughter]
Aminatou: I learned the other day on the Internet that the plural of beef is beeves and I'm so not into that.
Ann: No way.
Aminatou: That's disgusting, right?
Ann: Beeves? Like Beeves and Butthead?
Aminatou: Yeah, I feel like that's some weird British thing. I don't agree.
Ann: Ask Beeves. Oh my god, I need that to figure out which rappers are feuding. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Stop it. You are so, so, so ridiculous.
Ann: It's a dad joke I can make.
Aminatou: Are you one of those people that just doesn't like the Kardashians because you just don't like them?
Ann: No. I actually just -- I mean I'm just not very interested in the show. I mean I guess I'm kind of interested . . . this is going to sound like the most douchiest thing ever. I'm kind of intellectually interested in the Kardashians as a concept.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Ann, stop.
Ann: No! Like the idea -- yeah, right, this idea that they're a pack. It's like there's a bunch of them. And it's not . . . it's not just like one. I guess Snooki and Jwoww were kind of a pack.
(24:00)
Aminatou: No, but you know, these people are like a real pack right? I had this realization last week after watching Mad Men, LOL, I don't know if you're watching this season of Mad Men, but Peggy and Don and the one with the forehead -- oh, Pete -- are all sitting around going "Does the real American family still exist? Do people sit around and hang out in our family?" And that's like 1969 and they have anxiety about it. And all I'm thinking is yes, that family still exists and they're called the Kardashian-Jenner clan.
Ann: Family values.
Aminatou: Like they're the only family. They're the only family that's left. My favorite thing about them is how they perpetually support and shout each other out over social media and I had the realization that's our generation's, you know, like the Waltons calling each other goodnight. And that's so important to me. Everybody who knows me is like "Amina, you're a crazy person for how much you like the Kardashians."
Ann: I mean I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Aminatou: You know, but I also . . . I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about this idea of being intellectually into the Kardashians and I was like oh my god, you fake cultural -- like pop culture.
Ann: Stop. I do . . . well, so I will actually not fake it.
Aminatou: You fake pop culture literacy. I'm like I go into the dark places.
Ann: See, okay, listen, I go into the dark places with some things but I never said I know everything that's happening with the Kardashians.
Aminatou: Okay, but you top-line level know what's happening. Obvi you know because you're in my family so I have to tell you.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: I have to share this shit with people.
Ann: I know what I learn from you and what I hear on The Read.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You know, like right now I'm really worried about Rob Kardashian because he did not go to the wedding. I'm like Rob, what's going on?
Ann: But, and here's a thing I know from listening to The Read, the fam was tweeting their defense of "I don't want to lose weight." And that just supports your Kardashian family support theory.
(25:55)
Ann: Totally. They are. They are like the most supportive family you can be part of and that's why I'm excited that Kanye is in that family because he needs a lot of support.
Ann: Okay, back up. I want to address this allegation that I was faking cultural literacy.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: You thought I was going to let that slide.
Aminatou: Okay, tell me Ann. Tell me how you really feel.
Ann: This is a New York Times essay -- was it in the magazine? I don't know.
Aminatou: You know, I would say that it was in the magazine but I didn't read it so I would fake reading it.
Ann: I read it on the Internet.
Aminatou: JK, JK, I read it. It's in the magazine.
Ann: Okay, it felt like magazine but I read it on the Internet so that was just a guess. But basically . . .
Aminatou: I think it's Sunday Review probably. It sounds like Sunday Review.
Ann: Oh yeah. This essay argues that if you say, for example, "Oh yeah, that sounds familiar," or like "Oh, I think I know who Rob Kardashian is but I can't place it," you have no idea what you're talking about and haven't read the article. Or when you start talking about affirmative action you haven't actually read Ta-Nehisi's cover story about reparations. We all just fake it with everything and read a couple tweets and pretend we've read the whole article. This is what this essay says. I do it sometimes, but I don't think I was doing it with the Kardashians.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I wasn't like "Let me tell you about the Kardashians."
Aminatou: I mean, so here's my -- I guess, you know, I read that thing and I was not shocked right? One, the way that you can always tell people are faking cultural literacy is it's like the race to be the first to tweet something. I'm like yes, you are tweeting things that you have not read. It's hilarious for me because a lot of those people for me are like journalists that I follow and I'm like aren't you supposed to read all of this to make sure that you agree with it?
Ann: But retweets are not endorsements, don't you read?
Aminatou: You know, but we will judge you by your retweets.
(27:55)
Ann: But I think that's what everyone is aware of, like oh, you'll judge me by my retweets and look at this well-curated collection.
Aminatou: Yeah, the whole article was funny to me because I'm very aware of the things that I don't know about and I try to not wade into those Internet waters mostly because they're boring to me, right? It's like policy or hedge funds. I'm like I'm almost 30. I've been reading the hedge funds Wikipedia for years. I still don't know what the fuck it is. I don't get it. It's a scam as far as I'm concerned. I don't know the difference between hedge funds and Herbalife. I don't.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: It's true. So I follow smart people to tell me about it. But I think this article is also interesting in the context of explainer journalism because so many people were mad at explainer Internet king voxnews.com. Is it Vox News or just Vox?
Ann: I think it's vox.com. I think they shelled out the big bucks for that URL.
Aminatou: For Vox News? I'm just going to call it Vox News because Vox just sounds like a church name, you know? There's like ten churches named Vox.
Ann: Really? This is like an evangelical thing that I don't understand.
Aminatou: Totally. Latin? Please. That shit is . . .
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: So yeah, you know, it's like they had that article that's like "Who is Solange?" in the Beyonce/Solange elevator Benghazi gate, sorry. And half of the Internet was upset at them. They were like "Uh, how do you not know who Solange is?" Blah, blah, blah. And it's like are you kidding me? No, the target audience of that website absolutely does not know who Solange is.
Ann: Also only alts are truly familiar with the Solange catalogue.
Aminatou: No, totally. I'm like Solange has moved what, like 5,000 albums in her entire career?
Ann: Right, right.
Aminatou: If you don't know who she is that's cool. You know, so for me mostly I love it when people fake pop culture or cultural literacy. I don't care if you don't know the intricacies of like new gun regulations but I guess . . . I guess I'm not as pretentious as I want to be.
(30:00)
Ann: I mean, but no, no, no, I think this also has to do with the fact that you just consume a lot. Like . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I feel like media and culture -- when we first became friends I was like there's no way she's actually reading and watching and is knowledgeable about everything.
Aminatou: Did you really think that?
Ann: In the back of my mind I had some doubts.
Aminatou: [Gasps]
Ann: I know, I'm sorry. I'm confessing my friends now.
Aminatou: That cuts a little deep. Wow, wow.
Ann: But the thing is I think -- I don't know what it is. Do you read faster? Do you sleep less? You're right, you don't fake it, but I also just . . . I don't know how she does it.
Aminatou: I don't know. Maybe you just work harder than I do. That's also a distinct possibility.
Ann: I don't know though. I mean my work is technically to read stuff on the Internet. I guess I feel like I read a lot of Internet and I always assume that if I've read something then you've read it and five related articles already.
Aminatou: Yeah, it's because you work harder than I do. I'm going to chock it up to that. When we met I was working a job I did not like, and we've all been there.
Ann: It's people like that who keep me in busy. Like if people weren't bored reading the Internet in their cubicle I would be out of a job.
Aminatou: No, totally. You know, it's . . . yeah, we're all wasting about, hmm, 80% of our workday just Internet reading.
Ann: I mean god bless, let it forever be thus. [Laughs] But seriously, I don't know. Okay, how many hours a night do you sleep?
Aminatou: Me? On a good night maybe five.
Ann: Okay, a good night meaning a night you get a lot of sleep?
Aminatou: I have sleep problems. I have sleep issues, remember? We've talked about this.
Ann: I know, but I'm just saying it gives you a lot of time to read the Internet.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I need like eight hours.
Aminatou: Handicap for reading the Internet? I love it.
(31:55)
Ann: [Laughs] It is true, the insomnia handicap. People who if you're not faking cultural literacy it's probably because you have problems sleeping.
Aminatou: No totally, you know? I've been reading a lot less, you know, since the end of Google Reader. RIP Google Reader.
Ann: RIP.
Aminatou: It still hurts. It hurts. It hurts really bad. But I think that that's what made me conducive about reading the things that I wanted. It's like you can curate your own Internet experience and that's become harder.
Ann: My Internet reading experience being five hours ahead of most people I know on the Internet, or at least a good portion of them in New York -- it's so strange -- the mornings I am handicapped from procrastinating. I can go to Twitter as many times as I want and there will only be two new tweets and hour until New York is awake.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And you would think this has made me more productive but it just makes me spend more time on Tumblr which is more likely to be updated through the night by people who are not at work.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: All it does is change my procrastination method. It doesn't make me more focused.
Aminatou: That's true. Man, how do you deal with reading the Internet when you live on the west coast? Because this is a huge anxiety that I have is that now I'm three hours behind everyone and all of the news has happened. When you worked at that place that we shall not mention that fired everybody -- assholes -- I went in to work with you for a week and I was shocked at how cool and casual everybody was. I'm like first of all you guys are already three hours behind. By 2 p.m. Eastern all the news has happened. What is happening here?
Ann: You have to develop a laid-back California attitude. I don't know how else to tell you. Also do you remember maybe it was that same visit being at a café and nearly having a meltdown because there were two ladies in front of us who asked about every tea on the menu and you were like I can't believe it?
Aminatou: Ann, I remember very well.
(33:52)
Ann: Right. And that's when I realized I'd gotten chilled because I didn't even notice and then I looked at you and I was like why is she having this meltdown? But yeah, California chill is real and I actually think it's a coping mechanism, especially if you're a journalist, to make you be able to live your life three hours behind all of your bosses and everyone else who works in your industry. I don't know. I just wake up and the Internet is full and bursting with a bounty of . . .
Aminatou: But you wake up earlier than most people, let's be real, because you are afraid also of being a little far.
Ann: I know but like even if I'm up at 7 it's still 10 on the east coast. You know what I mean? It's not like there's . . . it's not like you're beating people. There's no beating people on the west coast, like if I -- you know, to file something first or tweet something first or other shit I don't care about, I guess I would have to do that by staying up late. There's no wake up early and do it unless I'm getting up at like 4 a.m. and I'm not.
Aminatou: Oh my god, you're right. I'm going to move to California and three weeks in I'm going to have a meltdown. Oh my god.
Ann: No, you're going to recalibrate.
Aminatou: I don't think I can ever recalibrate. This is who I am. I'm an intense person inside.
Ann: I think there is a mandatory chill that California mandates.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: And you can get there with extensive amounts of marijuana. You can get there by realizing you can't be first on the Internet. There's a lot of ways to get there, you know? Everyone has their own path.
Aminatou: It's true. I guess mostly what I don't like is the bullshit we're chill but really it's that you're lazy. Like that's what I can't stand. That's the vibe that L.A. gives me so hopefully this will not be true in San Francisco.
Ann: I can't -- I'm like shaking my head.
Aminatou: No, it's true. It's like all these people that can't pay attention at you because they're like "Hey, I can't serve you tea because really I want to be an actor. That's my dream job."
Ann: Oh my god, that is such . . . I can't even speak.
Aminatou: You are getting so angry. [Laughs]
Ann: I'm like apoplectic over here.
Aminatou: You're so angry, I'm pushing all your buttons on purpose and I love it.
Ann: Oh my god, I'm like whipped into a frenzy. My lower back is sweating. I'm like this is the way to get me un-chill.
Aminatou: I know. I wish we were in the same room because I can literally see your shoulders just getting arched.
Ann: My arms are crossed. My body language says step off the California stereotypes.
(36:08)
Aminatou: You're about to peacock me. It's cool. I see you.
Ann: [Laughs] Well you know what, look, this is why we have this podcast. We're going to do a California chill check-in every episode and we'll see where your chill level is at.
Aminatou: It's just going to be me in the fetal position screaming "Take me back to New York!"
Ann: I'll be like "Point to the emoji that expresses your feelings."
Aminatou: Oh my god, I know exactly what emoji it is.
Ann: I'm going to make you a chart.
Aminatou: It's crazy. Hey, did you see that question that we got from Natalia about why -- I guess when straight women call each other girlfriend?
Ann: Yeah, so after we announced the name of this podcast our friend Natalia who lives in the Bay area, right?
Aminatou: No, Natalia lives in New York. She lives in Dumbo.
Ann: Oh, I was about to say.
Aminatou: I don't know how to tell you this, she's a power lady. She lives in New York.
Ann: Oh my god, I cannot with you. Just stop.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I'm like holding my hand at the microphone saying stop.
Aminatou: I'm sorry, if you did a survey of power ladies most of them live in New York. The other half of them live in San Francisco and then sprinkled in the rest of the country.
Ann: Oh my god, I'm dropping this right now.
Aminatou: I'm just saying this to make you angry.
Ann: I know you are. I know you are.
Aminatou: Power ladies live everywhere. Home is where the heart is. Home is where the wi-fi connects automatically.
Ann: Exhaling.
Aminatou: You're fine. [Laughs]
Ann: Anyway, our friend Natalia who lives in New York -- she's my friend on the Internet clearly because I do not know where she lives -- asked us to address the phenomenon of ladies who don't date ladies, which would describe the both of us, calling each other girlfriend. I guess I didn't think too much about the sexual identity politics of the name of this podcast I confess. Did you have thoughts for her?
(37:55)
Aminatou: I mean I didn't really. I guess it's more about spelling, right? Because people always say "That's my girl friend" if it's two words but if it's one word it's, yeah, I guess it's girlfriend. Yeah. Talk about faking cultural literacy. [Laughs] Anything that's smart about gender is . . .
Ann: Well the sub-part of her question was -- and I wish, we should maybe find the tweet and actually read it, but the sub-part of her question was like "And why is it totally fine? Women don't have any problem blurting that line but you'll never hear two straight men calling each other boyfriend."
Aminatou: I guess I don't know the why but all I know is that's very comforting to me as a woman that it's not threatening, at least in the context of other women, to identify with that kind of language.
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Whereas my whole . . . every time we watch Entourage this is all we talk about, right? That the number one thing they're afraid of is that someone's going to say that they're gay. That's the most threatening thing to a bro dude.
Ann: Right, whereas I'm very excited at the prospect of someone thinking we're actually a couple.
Aminatou: [Laughs] I know, right? Ugh, sometimes it makes me sad. I feel like it's a personal failure that I'm not more gay.
Ann: I know. Me too. Me too. We can't all be perfect.
Aminatou: We cannot all be perfect. It does, it makes me very sad. If I ever have children and they turn out straight that will definitely be a personal failure.
Ann: Oh my god, especially -- I think about this a lot. If I ever had a male-child he would be at least half white because I'm white, and then what if he's straight? Think about all the de-programming that's required.
Aminatou: I know.
Ann: If he's gay that just makes it a lot easier.
Aminatou: It also just makes him a lot better.
Ann: I know, yeah.
Aminatou: This conversation is very into the too real. [Laughs]
Ann: Also the prejudiced against straight people too real. I hope we get hate mail for that.
Aminatou: Oh my god, I have so much straight people prejudice, are you kidding? We are awful. We are terrible, terrible, terrible people.
Ann: Selfloathingstraightpeople.tumblr.com.
Aminatou: Oh my god, straight people are the worst. We make everything the worst.
[Music]
(40:29)
Ann: Did you read any menstruation news this week?
Aminatou: No, I didn't read any menstruation news. Was there pertinent menstruation news?
Ann: No, I don't have any sadly.
Aminatou: Yeah, I didn't read the news. I was not on my period. So all in all it was a good week for menstruation for me.
Ann: Yeah, a non-issue. A non-issue this week. I like checking in with our periods. [Laughs]
Aminatou: It's crazy, except that I think . . . [Laughs] I was talking to somebody though who was like what are all-natural homeopathic ways of stopping your period? And I was like girl, I can't help you.
Ann: Wait, is that a thing? Other than starving yourself and exercising too much as a way of stopping your period.
Aminatou: No, it's like you . . . yeah, it's like if you are about to go on a sexy weekend that you don't want to get ruined by your period and it's like day zero.
Ann: Nature's lubricant? Why would you want to stop that?
Aminatou: Yeah, like day 0.5 of your period, what's a hippie way of stopping that? And I was like hippie remedies don't work, everybody knows.
Ann: Oh my god, speaking of hippie remedies I went into a health food store in London today and I realized that I hadn't seen kombucha in weeks.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Did you get a road buch?
Ann: I definitely did not because I was carrying several heavy sacks of groceries.
Aminatou: Okay, put down your weird British kombucha, Ann, because we're going to step into a phone booth deep into space to talk about rom-coms with our good friend and super-smart writer and A++ lady Lindsey Weber.
[Interview Starts]
Ann: Hi Lindsey.
Aminatou: Hi everyone.
Lindsey: Hey guys! I feel like really honored and privileged that you would invite me to test out the podcast.
(42:02)
Aminatou: Lindsey did you read that New York Times AO Scott review of that new Drew Barrymore movie?
Lindsey: It was up in my feed, up in my face, and it came out actually the day after I saw Blended in theaters to everyone's dismay that how dare I go see this movie?
Aminatou: Well did you like it? Tell me.
Lindsey: Well, so I didn't hate it. I kind of went in with really low expectations but I'm a huge Drew Barrymore fan and I'm a huge fan of those two. 50 First Dates is one of my favorite romcoms of all time.
Aminatou: Me too!
Ann: Adam Sandler -- I just can't with Adam Sandler. I'm sorry.
Lindsey: I think he had a thing and now he definitely does not have that thing anymore.
Ann: Here's the question, does he sing in a stupid voice in 50 First Dates?
Lindsey: Does he sing in a stupid voice? Yes.
Aminatou: Nobody can with Adam Sandler. You only can with Adam Sandler and Drew Barrymore. That's the secret.
Lindsey: I mean I will say I'll never forget Adam Sandler's from New Hampshire and my parents and my brother are really into him and I remember he had a comedy album that came out and it had a song about having a piece of shit card but it was sung in reggae form and my mom thought that was the epitome of high humor. She played it every day. That was the funniest thing she'd ever heard. So after that I always have love for Adam Sandler. But I can tell you what I thought about Blended. I mean I went in kind of expecting nothing and I ended up actually feeling genuine emotion. Underneath all of the kind of silliness of Adam Sandler in that movie there's a genuinely sweet story.
Ann: And what is that story?
(43:50)
Lindsey: It's a man and a woman, one of which is widowed and one of which has an awful ex-husband and they each have kids of the opposite sex of them so Drew Barrymore has two girls and Adam Sandler has three girls and they meet and they don't like each other. It's a very traditional apartment-style romance where they are not friends. And then they end up in a silly situation -- yes, it's in Africa, yes it's vaguely racist, let's not even get into that -- but beneath all of the silliness of that trip they kind of raise each other's children and then they fall in love through that kind of mutual admiration of each other's care-taking. It's a rom-com for adults on their second marriage, okay?
Ann: I was going to say the target audience of romcoms for adults is totally us because It's Complicated is one of my favorite movies of all time.
Lindsey: That's a great movie, yes.
Ann: At least for the past two or three years, at least twice a year, some film critic usually writes "The rom-com is dead." But am I incorrect? You told me you're a rom-com optimist.
Lindsey: I mean I kind of see indie romcoms that I love all the time that are still coming out. I just think that kind of big-budget films are not romcoms right now because of the way that the industry kind of goes in cycles. You know, Blended did not do well in theaters. There will not be a Blended 2 to no one's dismay.
Ann: No!
Lindsey: But Best Man Holiday came out this last year and did incredible and no one thought it was going to do well and they're making another one immediately. So you really don't know. There's just different -- it's not just a simple equation that you can put together. You can't just put two really attractive actors together anymore and say "Here's the rom-com."
Aminatou: I guess the shift for that for me and what's exciting is that we're getting more and more lady buddy movies like The Heat. I'm down for big budget studios paying for that kind of shit.
Lindsey: Yeah. I mean a lot of it too is this kind of like they have these women who they want to focus on and they maybe don't want to throw them in a rom-com. You know, they want them to do well and they know what does well right now which is, you're right, this kind of vaguely scatological . . . what is the word? Poop jokes. Poop jokes. Movies with poop jokes.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
(46:15)
Lindsey: I just mean that is what is doing well so when you have a comedic actress like Melissa McCarthy who is killing it, even like Sandra Bullock who did romcoms and is now kind of leading the line, they're going to put her in the stuff that's going to do better because she can do anything.
Aminatou: I was away this weekend and 27 Dresses was on and every single lady . . .
Ann: I was away . . .
Aminatou: They were like "We have to watch 27 Dresses." Which is kind of a terrible movie minus this great Bennie and the Jets scene that happens and it's really interesting because they were all talking about how they hate Katherine Heigl and Katherine Heigl is the number one lady who's been accused of killing the rom-com which is actually bullshit. All of her movies make money. I think it's great that more and more women can speak about sexism in movies. Katherine Heigl is the only person that called out Judd Apatow about the way he treated his female characters in Knocked Up, right?
Lindsey: But you know, you see the rom-com is dead but it's just the big-budget rom-com. Like this weekend The Obvious Child comes out with Jenny Slate, I don't know if you guys have heard of that. It's supposed to be incredible. So it's about a woman -- it's based around an abortion but it's a rom-com. It's a small rom-com. It was partially funded on Kickstarter. You had, a while ago now, Drinking Buddies which was a wonderful rom-com which you should definitely all watch. About Time came out last year that was wonderful. Did you guys see In a World? That was one of my favorites last year.
Ann: Yeah.
Lindsey: Yeah. Even kind of the silly ones last year that I really took a liking to last year. There was a movie that came out called Warm Bodies that was like a zombie rom-com which sounds awful. It was really adorable and actually I don't think it did so poorly in the box office. I might be wrong. Anyways, it's not like these things don't exist; they're just not the big budget that we're used to seeing which was totally over-saturated with the Katherine Heigl in 27 Dresses, Something Borrowed of the world, you know?
Aminatou: Oh my god, Something Borrowed is so awful but I watch it every time.
Lindsey: That movie's bad. So bad.
Aminatou: Well thank you so much for joining us Lindsey. Come back anytime.
Lindsey: Oh, any time. I hope that . . .
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Thanks to Lindsey Weber. You can find her on Twitter @lindseyweber, that's Lindsey with an E and Weber with one B, or on vulture.com every day pretty much.
[Music]
Ann: So subscribe on iTunes, it's Call Your Girlfriend, tweet at us which is @callyrgf, Y-R-G-F, go to our website which is callyourgirlfriend.com if you don't want to remember all those other things.
Aminatou: Tell everybody you know about Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: I remembered that last time we forgot our standard sign-off. See you on the Internet.
Aminatou: Oh, see you . . . [Laughs] See you on the Internet, Ann.
Ann: Bye boo. And also . . .
Aminatou: And also tweet at us how your period is doing this week.
Ann: Oh my god, period update. Period status update.
Aminatou: Period update.
Ann: How's your uterine lining, ladies? Let us know. [Laughs]