The Stretch: Summer of Friendship #5
7/24/20 - We stretch when we grow with, and in response to, a friend. But it can be hard to figure out: How do you know how much to give to a friendship—and take from it? We talk to therapist Jordan Pickell about interdependence and the blurry line between leaning on friends and asking too much of them.
Transcript below.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
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Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
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TRANSCRIPT:
[Ads]
(1:00)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman!
Ann: Hello, hello. Ugh, love the energy that you're bringing today.
Aminatou: [Laughs] Are you trolling me?
Ann: I am not trolling you! That was a very energetic intro. We are in the hot doldrums of summer. We are like deep in book promo exhaustion and you're bringing the energy consistently.
Aminatou: You know what boo-boo? You get the best of me every day. There you go.
Ann: I know. Don't I know it and don't I appreciate it?
Aminatou: Oh my gosh, what are we talking about today?
Ann: Today we are talking about an extended metaphor that you and I came up with to describe all the ways that being in a friendship and staying in a friendship can challenge us as individuals. We call it the stretch, the idea that you might need to change something, look at your behavior, or change the way you're spending time with a friend, or have a hard conversation to account for the fact that things are constantly changing in both friends' lives and that no friendship can be on autopilot or totally static for very long.
[Theme Song]
(2:48)
Aminatou: Wow, so are you saying that friendship is work Ann?
Ann: You know, it's interesting because in really teasing out this metaphor we talked about the fact that some stretches feel amazing. You know when you just naturally stretch in the morning how good that feels? Or when you are maybe in a good yoga groove and your body just feels amazing after you do it. And then other stretches are like oh my god, did I pull something? I am in so much pain. Can I even bend over? Can I even lift my arm? What is my body even doing? This is so hard. Can I complete it? You know, a stretch can mean a lot of different things from the positive and yummy feeling to the super-difficult and might break you pain.
Aminatou: I'm so proud of you with these PE metaphors that you've got in here. I'm glad that, you know, high school PE was good for you.
Ann: Oh my god, now you are trolling me. I can't even . . .
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: I cannot even. The only way I survived high school PE was marijuana, let me tell you. I am really . . . yeah.
(3:55)
Aminatou: Oh my god.
Ann: But I do enjoy a stretch. As an adult without the baggage of, you know, being forced to perform it with my classmates I can honestly tell you that I do love a stretch in adulthood.
Aminatou: I agree. And I think that the thing you were saying about sometimes it feels good and it feels natural and other times you really think you're going to break, that is really resonating for me because I always ask myself that question of just how do you know how much you're supposed to give to a friend right?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: And when is it too much? And when is it not enough? And that is something I think you just constantly have to be in dialogue with yourself and with your friend with and there's not really a clear-cut answer. You know, and I think that when we were writing this part of the book at least the thing that was the most apparent to me was that you and I are still figuring that out for ourselves. And it was such a reminder that actually every single friendship is very different and is governed by its own boundaries and its own points of stretches and straining and you can't -- you know, it's like you can take some big, high-level lessons from that but you can't really apply everything that you do in one friendship to another friendship that you're in. And I think that that in and of itself was also stretching me because . . . [Laughs]
Ann: Because you wanted it to be parallel.
Aminatou: Yes, I want it to be parallel and I want -- you know how I love efficiency, Ann. I love efficiency in a system.
Ann: Like one healthy relationship, let's replicate it.
Aminatou: Let's replicate it 20 times. Thank you, ding. And that is not how human lives work. And I think that, you know, the other thing that I ask myself also is why are some stretches easy? Why is it that some people -- you can go a little bit out of your comfort zone for someone and it feels great and you're still surprising yourself, and then other times you just are so inflexible or it's really painful? And I think that that also is just an ongoing conversation all the time because I'm always surprised when I find myself stretching towards someone because the story that I tell myself about myself is I'm very inflexible. I'm just like I'm an indoor cat and I like my ways and I'm just very set in how I do my life. And every once in a while you're just like oh, I surprised myself today and I did that because someone pulled me towards doing that.
Ann: [Laughs]
(6:25)
Aminatou: And it's true the only way I'm going to stretch is toward someone else and it has to feel good and it has to feel kind of fun. But there's also the kind of stretch that is having hard conversations and you and I have had to find a way to do that as well. And part of why we realize we have to have them is we were at a point in our friendship that we were so stretched that it's a miracle it didn't break, you know? And it's just constantly interrogating your own motivations and also what you think you're capable of. But I was not born knowing all this stuff.
Ann: Ugh, it's true. And I think this is another piece of terminology that is really born out of the way we naturally have come to talk to each other and describe this. You know, both in our friendship life and in our work life when one of us is feeling stress or maybe feeling like some exhaustion or that they are giving a lot of themselves and really not feeling a lot of support in return or not enough support in return we found ourselves saying "I'm feeling stretched" or "This situation with us living on opposite sides of the country is really stretching me" or trying to figure out how to show up for you right now while you're going through something hard I am really struggling. I am really feeling stretched in myself to figure out how to do that.
(7:50)
And I think that in a way we have just reflexively come to use it, right? Like to say that this means that probably a conversation is required just to shout-out last week's episode, some additional communication's probably necessary, and also that it somehow defuses the tension if there's a term for it right? So instead of being like "Our friendship isn't working" or saying something that feels big and scary and declarative we can apply this term to say in this moment or in this situation I am feeling stretched. And I think that again no two people or no two friendships are alike but for me that is the thing that has been really valuable about this piece of vocabulary, like being able to kind of use it to dial in and force myself to articulate okay, like what is it that is feeling off-balance in this friendship for me right now?
Aminatou: Can you think of some examples of low-level, not super-stressful stretching that you've had to do? Maybe in our friendship or in other friendships.
Ann: Well I think about one low-level stretch that you and I do all the time is time zone related, you know? And in some ways -- and, you know, in some ways we are naturally in a good time zone position as you always point out when I am behind you because I tend to -- again generalizing -- go to bed a little earlier and my brain tends to turn on a little earlier in the morning. But there have been times in our friendship when it's reversed and you are behind me in the time zones and that is really hard to figure out what is going to be a good time for us to connect. And also to work together frankly because that's also a part of our dynamic now.
And so it even comes up constantly, like right now we are together virtually-speaking pretty much all the time and recognizing that that means and requires different things from both of us. It requires me to wake up earlier than I otherwise would; it requires you to work into your evenings; and it also requires trust for both of us to kind of say "Actually we've done the last six calls in this time that's more convenient for you. I need something a little different. I need us to change up how we're doing it because I'm feeling stretched."
(10:00)
So, you know, the really small answer of time is my answer to that stretch question. I guess it's a small one. It's a deceptively small one that's actually kind of a big one. What about you? What stretch comes to mind?
Aminatou: I mean you stole my time zone one and I was going to say sometimes very specifically Caucasian music moments but I'm going to table that for a while. [Laughter] You know, the stretch of like wow, are we going to listen to more ELO on this ride?
Ann: Wow.
Aminatou: But listen, the truth comes out. No, that is a joke. I love ELO. Yeah, I think that you're right. It's interesting that for me too I'm gravitating more towards work. I think that one place that you have really, really modeled for me why it's so important to communicate is we also have a very different working style. And it's really funny that now we're at a point where if you send an email out on behalf of both of us I read it. I'm like yes, I agree wholeheartedly. We didn't even have to discuss this. But I think that in the beginning was a real stretch for me of oh, we communicate differently, we have different expectations, and yet we have to find a way to message together. And you end up making decisions differently when you're making them with someone else than if you're making them yourself.
But I think that for me it's been only net-positive in the sense that I've really learned how to build trust in with someone else where I'm like okay, yeah, you are speaking for both of us and that's great because that is usually -- I'm a very self-protective person and I'm always like oh, I'll only be responsible for myself and I want to be responsible for myself.
(11:45)
Even just these very subtle ways in which it's like do we -- when we're doing work are we texting about it? Are we calling about it? Are we emailing about it? Do you need it to happen right away? And one of the things that I always really appreciate about you and I really credit you with teaching me is that everything doesn't have to be an emergency right away. You can table the emergency and say okay, this thing is on my mind. I don't have the bandwidth to talk about it now but we'll just make time to talk about it later. And a huge revelation for how I work because it just means you can keep being efficient then come back to something that's big later. But in the beginning a huge stretch because we are very different in our working styles.
Ann: It's true but I have to say hearing you talk about that yes it does manifest for us in work but anywhere that friendship requires you to be collaborative there's a good chance that one or both of you are stretching. So it's like, you know, picking a restaurant for a celebratory dinner that's in both of your budget and dining preference and ideal neighborhood and all of that, super low-stakes thing, but also remember restaurants. Anyway super low-stakes thing [Laughter] where you have to kind of come to a consensus. Sometimes that can feel really easy and also sometimes it can be like ugh, we're still texting about this?
And then also bigger ones like a friend. Actually we did a whole episode about this which is when one friend doesn't have kids and another friend becomes a parent and the sacrifices required on both sides in order to stay in that friendship is a great example of a much more I think meaningful stretch.
Aminatou: Also having to negotiate so much of finances with someone. Like you and I both have I think a really good language for how we handle our money together that we have to do and I think it came naturally for us. But I do think it was a point where we had to stretch and really trust we could be business-married to each other. And I include Gina in this example of stretch, and money is an interesting stretch because over the course of a friendship people's finances change. And that is also something that has to be discussed and accommodated.
(14:00)
And so, yeah, I just think about how much stretching is just so inevitable if you're just two humans who . . . it's like even if you're side-by-side plants just growing next to each other you're growing and you're changing and the change will look different.
Ann: Oh my god, what house plant are you? I love this now as a metaphor. I'm like hmm, I'm trying to picture what you would be if you were a houseplant.
Aminatou: I would be a monstera. Let me tell you, my friend Daria gave me these like clippings of a monstera that were in her house and entrusted me with this new baby plant, please take care of it. Like it's an extension of my old plant. I love you. It represents our love. Long story short I am a garbage human being who travels all the time and does not treat this plant well. She will go weeks, sometimes months with no water but she is still thriving Ann. She's just thriving in the corner. I am the monstera.
Ann: I love that. I am the snake plant which is another notorious hard-to-kill plant. I think my ideal self is like a thriving-in-the-corner snake plant. That's the plant I give friends who are like "Oh my god, I kill everything." I'm like "No, no, this is going to survive. I know it." So anyway in my idealized world we are side-by-side monstera and snake plants. And now I don't even remember what this metaphor was so we can move on. [Laughs]
Okay so one of the hard things about the stretch I think for me has always been trying to find this line between leaning on your friends for support when you need it and feeling like you're asking too much of a friendship. Or wanting to be like an independent person versus someone who needs more and needs to both give and take more from her community. And so I had a great conversation with Jordan Pickell who is a registered clinical counselor and a trauma therapist based in Vancouver and we talked a bit about this concept of stretching, about boundaries and sacrifice within friendship, and then these ideas of independence versus interdependence.
Aminatou: I can't wait to hear this.
[Interview Starts]
(16:14)
Ann: Jordan welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Jordan: Thanks for having me.
Ann: I would love to hear you talk a little bit about when your clients come to you with their struggles within friendship or their issues with friends what are some things you hear over and over?
Jordan: Over and over again I hear folks talk about -- well a big one is about an imbalance in the relationship or what is called an imbalance in the relationship. The one-sidedness. Maybe feeling like your friend is heavily relying on you and you don't know what to do about it or how to talk about it. There's a lot of processing feelings around something maybe your friend said or did and not being able to speak up in that moment or wanting to have a conversation about it and having the conversation with me in therapy to plan how that conversation could go.
Ann: That's interesting because I think that is the kind of, for lack of a better term, discuss the relationship conversation that many of us are used to seeing modeled like in pop culture when it comes to a romantic relationship and much less so when it comes to a friendship.
Jordan: Yeah. In order to have an intimate relationship we need to find our ways of connecting with each other and moving through conflict because conflict inevitably comes up. Disappointment comes up. Misunderstanding. Confusion comes up in close relationships. So how do we either individually create the skill or together in our friendship have a pathway for how we address these sorts of conflicts as they come up? Because they will inevitably come up.
(17:55)
Ann: Ugh. You know, you mentioned this word imbalance when it comes to the conversations that you have with your clients about friendship. That's something we really struggled to articulate how it is that certain sacrifices felt totally balanced for a long period of our friendship, like we were both equally bought-in, and then somehow without us even noticing we both started to feel this imbalance. Like individually we both felt like we were the one putting ourselves out there and the other person was just not. And it's been very interesting in retrospect for us to talk about those times in our friendship because weirdly we had the same feeling that we were both the one putting ourselves out there. It sounds like that is also pretty common, this sense of like I'm doing everything I can and what are they up to? How are they contributing?
Jordan: Yeah, that I put myself out there and then they aren't reciprocating.
Ann: Right.
Jordan: Or I'm not getting the type of feedback that I'm hoping to get from my friend.
Ann: What are some of the tools or some of the advice that you give folks for how to move through a moment like that in a friendship?
Jordan: I think a big thing is being able to have the difficult conversations and being willing and open to hearing really how the other person sees it and willing to maybe accept that that's their perspective. Being able to look at ourselves and how are we playing into the dynamic? Because it really can be that there's just a misatunement where there's certain moments where someone is what Gottman would call giving a bid for connection and the other person is feeling hurt and so they aren't willing to be open to receive it. And then there's another moment where they're giving their bid for connection and the other person is hearing hurt from the last time and is unwilling to meet them there.
(19:45)
So how can we talk about either the individual moments where that has happened or just the overall sense that hey, there have been miscommunications or I feel hurt by you and I understand that you feel hurt by me. How do we together move through this? Whether it's just being able to sit in the feelings of discomfort or hurt and being able to express it fully with your friend or, you know, in some cases -- of course as a therapist I think it would be great if we could normalize friends going to therapy together because sometimes it really is helpful to have a third party facilitate both the ability to stay grounded, to have that type of conversation, and to stay at that level of being able to speak clearly, being able to feel feelings fully, and giving a space for the other person to also speak what's going on for them.
Ann: Hmm. And gosh, it's interesting, you mentioned Gottman whose work I know is mostly known in the realm of marriage and romantic relationships, is that right?
Jordan: Yeah. It's unfortunate because in terms of friendship therapy, of friends going into therapy, there's not a ton of research for trainings for how to support friends in therapy and most of what therapists are drawing from are family therapy and couple's therapy theories. Not that they don't apply but I think there are some specific things around friendship, both how they function in our lives but also how they are seen culturally that would be important to develop more of those feelings, those understandings in order to best support friends in therapy.
Ann: I mean I think for us one reason why we didn't talk about big changes that were affecting our friendship is that we -- I don't know, in the past it had always kind of worked fine, you know? Like we had really had this very kind of easy rapport and we found it very easy to get vulnerable with each other in the early years of our friendship. Even through things that were quite difficult like big shifts.
(22:05)
You know, for example we had lived in the same place and I moved away and we actually made the transition to living very far apart I think quite seamlessly in the early days. We didn't have to have a big conversation about this thing that was going to affect our friendship. And so I think we were really disarmed later when things required sacrifice from both of us because in the past we definitely sacrificed for each other but we didn't -- it just felt effortlessly balanced. And so I'm wondering about that experience of imbalance in a friendship and what are some of the feelings that can come up or signs that actually I don't think we're sacrificing the same way? Or I am feeling an imbalance. What does that actually feel like in real-time?
Jordan: I think the biggest thing is a sense of resentment that can build up and that you can notice over time and wanting to give less to the person because you're feeling like there isn't as much coming to you. But another piece that I think can go sort of unseen is starting to withhold parts of yourself or parts of our lives that we're not sharing with the other person in order to keep the bond. We start to feel like the bond is less stable and so we share certain parts of us that we know can keep the bond going and we keep out the parts of us and the parts of our lives that may bring up more conflict or bring up more discomfort in the relationship. And over time we know less and less about each other and what's going on in their lives and also just who they are as a person because we're holding these pieces of ourselves back as we grow and change.
Ann: Wow, that is feeling extremely relevant to my life and experiences. Let's take a quick break and Jordan and I will be back. I find myself thinking about the times when I have known that a big change is coming in my friendship. So another example would be a very close friend of mine is about to become a parent, right? And I'm like okay, I understand this is a huge shake-up. It is not something -- it's not an experience I'm going to be walking through with you as like a peer. I'm not a parent. And I'm just wondering if you have advice in that situation of not so much how do I recognize a disconnect or imbalance has happened but when you can look ahead and say "Hmm, I know this is going to challenge our friendship and I don't want it to actually threaten it. I want to kind of walk through that experience. I want my friend to be able to show all parts of themselves to me as they move through that." Do you have advice for what that can look like in terms of the conversation or the vulnerability in advance?
(25:10)
Jordan: Well one thing that you've mentioned is even just knowing ahead of time that this is going to be a challenge for our friendship and being able to put more of our energy and just mobilizing more of our resources, inner and outer, in order to keep the relationship close, and at the same time just exactly what you said: being able to say exactly what you said to your friend. To say, you know, "I know that this is going to shift things and I want to make sure we keep our bond strong and I want to walk through this with you even though I can't understand." I think that for some people they don't make that explicit and so much of it goes unsaid. It's vulnerable to tell friends that hey, I'm committed to this friendship because in some ways you're putting yourself out there and there are cultural ideas about how when somebody gets a new partner, they get married, or they have a child that friendship becomes less of a priority. And to be able to say together "Hey, this is a priority for us and we're going to take steps to make sure that it's still mutual." Even if somebody who's a new parent may be taking more than they give temporarily and there may seem to be an imbalance.
And that's why I don't -- I typically use one-sidedness versus imbalance even if it sounds like the same word or the same meaning. But to me one-sidedness is about a loss of mutuality while an imbalance can be brought back into balance. There's no such thing as balance. We're constantly tipping on each side to make sure there is a sense of mutuality and balance.
Ann: That's a really helpful distinction because I think it can be really hard to find that perspective in real-time right? Like what is a forever condition of the friendship that might feel like one person is giving more and what is sort of a temporary condition wherein you both in the big picture sense still remain really committed. And we don't know the future right? We don't know what's going to happen outside this moment. And yeah, I don't know, I struggle with that a lot, like what's being withholding and selfish versus when is it actually too much to sacrifice?
Jordan: Yeah. And I do think that sometimes we can be selfish, you know?
Ann: What? No. No.
Jordan: There are moments and points in our lives where we are going to take more than we give and we are going to disappoint. You know, maybe being a new parent that friend disappoints their other friends by sort of dropping off the face of the earth and maybe not even seeming interested in what's going on in their friends' lives. Not showing up at all for months.
(28:00)
And so how do we come back together? How is there an accountability process? And I think the biggest piece is being willing to talk about it. Being willing to say what's going on, what people are feeling, and being willing to move through it together.
I do see that in our culture sometimes there's a lot of messaging around cutting off friendships when they're imbalanced or "toxic." Not that toxic relationships or toxic friendships don't exist, they absolutely do and we do have the right to end any friendship that we want to. We get to decide who's in our life and how much they're in our life and how much we share with them. And at the same time I think sometimes people end friendships as a way of avoiding feelings and as a way of avoiding difficult conversations and this is a skill that we need in all of our relationships. Whether we end one friendship, every other close friendship is going to require being able to have those difficult conversations.
Ann: Right. And probably periods of both a self-sacrifice that feels like a lot and periods where you're asking for something that feels like air-quotes "too much to ask from a friend." That's something I'm really struck by that feels different in friendship is what it is socially-sanctioned to expect in terms of support is really just fully unclear. There's not like a . . . you know, it's not like a relationship where it's like yes of course you can call your sister to do whatever. Of course you can expect that your spouse has to have this conversation with you. And I'm actually kind of speaking more from the side of asking for support or for grace in a period where you're too busy to attend to the friendship the way you really want to, that being almost as hard or hard in a different way than being the person who's overextended.
(30:00)
Jordan: Yeah, it's risky in a way to say I don't have -- either I don't have enough space. I don't have much to give right now and I hope that you will be with me anyway. And I think there is a missing piece in that sort of conversation of this person's relying too much on me or I'm asking too much in that it's individualized. That there is less of a community. There's less of an understanding. That framing is less of an understanding than hey, there's this whole community of people and how can we mobilize our friendships with an S to support somebody versus one person being the primary support of somebody who's struggling?
Ann: Ugh, this is reminding me when you and I spoke for the book you mentioned that there is this very -- I mean I would say it's a very American idea, but this idea that adulthood means independence. You know, this like nebulous verb adulting, all that stuff has to do with you, you, you. Are your finances in order? Are you on a career track? Do you have healthy relationships? And in reality that's not what wellness requires. That's not what we need to be a fully-realized and happy adult. And you really planted this idea in my mind that interdependence should be the adulthood standard and I would love to hear you expand on that.
Jordan: Yeah. In psychology in general there's this idea. I mean it's a cultural idea but it's also this idea in psychology that adulthood means being independent and not needing other people. And then I believe it was in the '70s there were some feminist psychologists who proposed an opposing view, it's called towards the psychology of women. They were building on how women relate to each other in adulthood. It's healthy to grow towards relationship rather than away from relationship.
(32:10)
They saw that when people can be in mutually-satisfying, mutually-empathic, reciprocal relationships that there's an increased sense of energy. That there's an increased sense of self-worth. That we get to know ourselves in the context of relationships and that we are better able to do what we need to do in the world whether it's in work, in family, or any other kind of passion we might have in our lives. It's the relationships with other people that support us to do what we want to do. And actually it's the relationships that bring us wanting more connection with other people rather than less. They sort of turn it on its head, the idea that growing towards relationships and being in close-knit relationships was a problem. And so being in close relationships is actually what health looks like in adulthood.
Ann: Ugh. And I love this. This is really mind-blowing, right, to be able to say expecting things of our friends, expecting sacrifice of our friends, and sacrificing for them in return is a hallmark of being a fully-functional adult. That feels wild to say that even though I know it to be true deep within me. It still sounds counter-intuitive to say that out loud, like needing your friends is so associated with being a mess or something as opposed to being an adult who's living well.
Jordan: Mm-hmm. And of course that idea is tied with, you know, capitalism.
Ann: You don't say. You don't say Jordan. [Laughs]
(33:55)
Jordan: Yeah, so being able to unlearn those ideas even in our friendships is something that's difficult to do.
Ann: Right. I think that we're taught if it's healthy and functional we're all just operating at some top level alone as two like parallel shooting stars right? Like there is no mutuality and support required.
Jordan: Yeah, it's all about productivity.
Ann: Yeah, you're right, about productivity. Yeah, it sounds lonely too when I say it that way.
Jordan: Yeah, we're all just cogs in the machine and we need to be productive and if we rely on other people that's the problem.
Ann: Right. Do you have thoughts about, as our listeners maybe want to do some self-examination with their own friendships, about some questions they can use to guide them? And the inspiration for this question is really when Aminatou and I sat down to write this chapter about sacrificing within friendship we really struggled to articulate what are our personal standards for we want to keep sacrificing versus we've decided it's too much? It was surprisingly hard to kind of unpick the threads, to go back and say actually these are where we have drawn -- this is where we've drawn the line personally in various types of friendships. And it's something I'm still thinking about which is moving forward how am I sussing out these boundaries for myself? How am I living in community without losing myself or making sure I'm getting what I need back? And so less on a level of conversation with friends and more on this kind of self-reflective level. Do you have thoughts on what people should ask themselves?
Jordan: How do friendships fit into my life? How do I want my friendships to look like? What is my style in the conflict? When I confront someone am I direct or indirect? When someone confronts me about how they're feeling do I become angry or defensive? Do I shut down? Do I leave the conversation? What is my relationship history from relationships with parents to relationships with other friends and partners? Were my thoughts and feelings and needs heard or did I feel like I needed to withhold those pieces in order to preserve the relationship? Do I have people that I feel like I can share my thoughts, feelings, and needs with? Because there is this sense that if I'm not able to share my feelings and thoughts and needs with somebody in my life that I will cut off parts of myself in order to fit into what I think people want of me in order to be close. And how do I feel in my friendships? Do I feel more energized? Do I feel like I understand myself better? Do I feel that there is mutuality and a sense of reciprocity? And on a moment-to-moment basis or in this season of my life how much do I have to give? How has this changed over time? And again it can be moment-to-moment. Maybe yesterday I could give so much more. And in what ways do I support my friends? In what ways do they feel supported? Because I think that sometimes there can also be a misunderstanding or a disconnect in terms of how I express my love and how they feel loved.
(37:30)
Ann: That is a rich line of questioning I have to say. [Laughs] As you were talking I was thinking about one of my good friends from college who would always use the like "Does this person drain or fill my bucket?" as a metaphor. And I think it was a little more nuanced than that where she would sort of say listen, in friendship everyone's going to need to drain your bucket sometimes right? And everyone's going to fill it at other points. But is it just continually it feels like there is an extraction rather than an abundance or something contributed is a metaphor she once used that I think about a lot.
Jordan: Right. When I leave the conversation or when I after hanging out with this person, do I feel resentful or do I feel sluggish? Do I feel like I need to go take a nap? Do I feel exhausted from having spent time with this person? And for me that's separate than being introverted versus extroverted because even introverts there's a sense of feeling energized as a whole by a relationship even if there's a certain amount of time before I need to go home and gather my thoughts and spend time alone to recharge as well.
Ann: Right. Like this is sort of an issue that is separate from questions like the introvert/extrovert binary.
Jordan: I think introverts can maybe get the idea that oh, I don't like people. I'm always exhausted by people. And to me that -- as a therapist I would be more curious to explore that, as to why all the relationships seem to be draining, because that would be a sign to me that there's something else going on.
Ann: Right. Some other type of pattern or something.
Jordan: Yeah.
Ann: Do you have any resources or thoughts that are -- outside of signing up to become personally one of your clients any resources that you would direct our listeners to if they're thinking through questions like this?
Jordan: As a therapist I am a champion for therapy. I think therapy is great whether you go individually or with your friend just to be able to understand ourselves better and how we relate to other people. Therapy can be this -- whatever comes up between you and the therapist can be something that comes up in your other relationships and can be worked through or practiced in therapy.
(40:00)
I also think that journaling is really good. It works for some people and is not so great for others. Really just where are the places where I can learn more about myself and what are my resources to sit with my feelings to be able to stay grounded when I have conflict? Because that I think is one big piece as well is when there's a conflict, when we get overwhelmed, it's hard to move through that conversation. So what are my tools? What are my go-to things that I do either during conflict, before, or after in order to stay connected with myself and the other person during the conversation? Whether it's keeping my feet on the floor or maybe doing some deep breaths before or after, those are some basic tools that we can use in our everyday lives of moving through whatever is difficult but also difficult conversations with friends.
Ann: Jordan thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been a delight.
Jordan: Thank you Ann. It's good to speak with you.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Ugh, isn't Jordan the best? Sorry.
Aminatou: Just the idea of someone who is a therapist really helping you to muddle through friendship problems is super, super, super exciting to me and so I'm just really glad. I'm just really glad for Jordan and the work that she does.
Ann: It's true and I really can't stop thinking about her comments about how interdependence is a true hallmark of adult wellness and how can we be interdependent without stretching? I'm like we're really full-circle here on this episode and I'm so grateful she lent us her brain for an hour.
(41:50)
Aminatou: Ugh, remember when we were going to go to Vancouver Ann?
Ann: Ugh, I know. Vancouver was going to be our book -- well bookeymoon is such a dumb word but it is what it is.
Aminatou: [Laughs]
Ann: Our book honeymoon was going to be to Vancouver and yeah, that did not happen.
Aminatou: One day, one day, one day, one day. If you are still listening to this podcast we are really grateful to you and we have a small favor to ask you. For some episodes later this summer, in mere weeks even, we are looking for questions and stories about your long-term close friends. You can call and leave us a voicemail about a rough patch that you made it through together or anything you really want to tell us, we want to hear about it. You can call us at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Or you can do the really easy thing and just record a voice memo from your phone and email it to us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We are really excited to hear your stories.
(42:50)
Ann: We have some excellent upcoming virtual events that you can join to hear us talk about the book on video. We'll be in conversation with Alicia Garza on July 27th, Jia Tolentino on July 29th, Glory Edim of Well-Read Black Girl on August 6th, and in partnership with Girl's Night In on August 10th. These are all things we're doing with independent bookstores and public libraries and we would love to see you there on the Internet. Find ticket info and RSVP at bigfriendship.com/events. We have also been on a lot of other podcasts lately and we would love you to tune into their shows. You can catch us on Keep It, Forever 35, Long-form, Dope Labs, Dear Prudence, So Many Damn Books, A Thing or Two with Claire and Erica, Thirst Aid Kit, on Happy Hour, Bad on Paper, and can you believe it, more. [Laughs] Find links to these interviews. Find links to these interviews at bigfriendship.com/interviews and give these other podcasts some love. And of course you can order the book, hear samples from the audio book, and read excerpts at bigfriendship.com.
Aminatou: Our book Big Friendship is available to order now wherever you buy books. Our book Big Friendship is available to order now wherever you buy books. We love an independent seller and we love the library system. You can find links to purchase, request, whatever you need to do, and information about virtual events that we're doing at bigfriendship.com.
Ann: Ugh, see you on the Internet.
Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo-boo. You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favs. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back, leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf and you can buy our book Big Friendship anywhere you buy books. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We have editorial support from Laura Bertocci. Our producer is Jordan Bailey. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.