So Many Money Feelings
8/30/19 - What makes you feel rich? When does money create strife in friendships? We go deep on our own money feelings. Plus, Gina poses your questions about money in relationships with Reema Khrais, host of This is Uncomfortable.
Transcript coming soon.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.
Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Design Assistant: Brijae Morris
Ad sales: Midroll
Image by 401kcalculator
LINKS
Michael Arceneaux’s Student Loan Serenity Prayer
This is Uncomfortable with Reema Khrais
50-30-20 rule for reducing debt
National Foundation for Credit Counseling non-profit advice on managing debt
TRANSCRIPT: SO MANY MORE FEELINGS
[Ads]
(0:18)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. I actually am very, very interested in today's show topic: we're talking about money and feelings and money and relationships.
[Theme Song]
(0:55)
Aminatou: Hi Ann Friedman! Hello! Como se va?
Ann: Bonjour.
Aminatou: [Laughs] You are trolling me. This is going to be the great troll of our lives.
Ann: How're you doing over there?
Aminatou: It's been a trying last two days for you and me.
Ann: Oh my god.
Aminatou: We're still standing.
Ann: Behind-the-scenes I just want everyone to know that we have been plagued by technical difficulties this week which is not really a new experience for us but over time we've kind of gotten better. And this week was just like a wow, all kinds of gear failure, user error, everything going wrong.
Aminatou: Yeah, mercury and lemonade. It's still happening.
Ann: Oh my god. Don't even get me started. Today though we're talking about money and feelings and money and relationships.
Aminatou: Man, I just . . . I'm already like -- I'm already shook. I'm already shook.
(1:50)
Ann: Okay, well I'm going to ask you first the kind of fun and easy version of this which is when do you feel rich?
Aminatou: Man, that's such a good question. [Laughs]
Ann: Rich is a feeling, truly.
Aminatou: Because rich is 100% a feeling. I don't know if you saw this interactive New York Times thing a couple weeks ago which was basically asking "Are you rich?" It was like a really well-done quiz because it accounted for your feelings. It was just like well what's your income, right? Then also what do you think rich is? Obviously you're ranked by your actual income in the world but you are also -- your feelings about whether you're rich or not are definitely influenced by what you think a lot or not a lot of money is.
Ann: Yeah. It's funny, I actually didn't see the New York Times thing but someone recently sent me a quiz which I will link to. It essentially tells you how much of your income you could give away without even changing your position in what percentile you are in terms of global wealth. Which I thought was really good because there are all kinds of statistics about how essentially people who are more likely to be living paycheck-to-paycheck or are more in need of the money they have are more likely to give a higher percentage away. And I thought that was a really interesting check as well on your perceptions of wealth or what you're able to give. So it's not the same quiz but I had a similar online interactive experience recently.
Aminatou: Right. And so okay, back to your question for me, I think that I feel rich any time a problem arises that I'm able to throw money at.
Ann: Hmm.
Aminatou: Like today I'm having all these problems with my computer and that's not a problem I can throw money at immediately so that made me feel not rich today at the Apple Store right?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: But I had a similar gear failure recently and I was like okay, I can buy a new recorder. That's something that's easy to do. Or, you know, I have like 17 errands to run but there's only 24 Beyoncé hours in a day. If one of those things can get taken off my hands and somebody else can do it whether it is a grocery service delivery or having someone pick up my dry cleaning or whatever, I'm always like this is how I feel rich. And . . .
(4:05)
Ann: Oh my god, I had a revelation about that recently. I was helping a friend hang some shelves, or one of our agenda items was hang some shelves. And I was like oh wait, we actually could afford to pay a handy person to come hang these while we do some equally important item from the to-do list. I felt rich in that moment for sure. So I'm feeling this.
Aminatou: Right. Because I feel the difference between me and people I consider very wealthy is they either have a lot of support or they can devote their time to running their own self. So I'm always like yeah, this is what rich people -- they can just buy outsourcing all sorts of tasks. And it feels like a huge extravagance to me that I have someone who cleans my house.
Ann: Mm-hmm.
Aminatou: Whenever I come home and everything has been organized and the house is not the mess I left it in I'm really, really grateful that that is a kind of support I can afford.
Ann: Totally. It's totally in line with the kind of support you're talking about.
Aminatou: Totally. And it's also honestly really transformed my mental health. Obviously when I was sick I needed someone to clean my house because I couldn't do it and then it's just like a routine I've kept up for a long time now. And I was like oh, yeah, great, this is now I know I have to work harder enough that I can always afford this because it makes me happy. I also feel very -- generally I feel like it's an indulgence that I can smell the way I want to smell.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: My idea of a rich person is someone who smells very good and doesn't wear socks with their loafers. And any time I can be an approximation of that person I'm like hell yeah.
Ann: Your house smells better than most physical spaces I have ever been in. Like truly it is an experience of wealth for me to inhale deeply when I cross the threshold of your home.
Aminatou: Aww.
Ann: So I can't even imagine what it's like to live there full-time. [Laughs]
(6:00)
Aminatou: You know me. I want to live like my space is a hotel, or a hotel I respect. There's just a lot of feelings that are tied into that. Because at the end of the day I am definitely more blessed than most people. I think that's true. I make an income that means I can afford a lot of those things. But when I think about in the grand scheme of generational wealth I have nothing and also I've got a lot of bills, like I support a lot of people. So it's so interesting like the psychology of what makes you feel good. Because, you know, I've told you this before. I just feel like a nine-year-old with a rich dad. So I'm like can I go to a Beyoncé concert? Yeah, definitely. I have Beyoncé concert money. I don't have money for more than that. [Laughs] So that feels . . .
Ann: Well maybe if you upped your Depop selling game you could have more. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Damn! I'm going to have to outsource my Depop store now. Damn, damn, damn. What about you? When do you feel rich?
Ann: I mean it's an interesting question because I definitely relate to the feeling of being able to pay for something that I am physically able to do myself or maybe competent enough to do myself but I don't have the time or it's something that I don't want to spend my time doing. That feels wealthy. The idea of financially being able to reclaim my time, that feels . . .
Aminatou: Yep.
Ann: Extremely rich. But then more on a body-level feeling I never feel richer than when I am extremely well-moisturized, wearing a nice robe maybe in a hotel that I got a last-minute deal on or something but that feels above my price point norm.
Aminatou: Come on over. Come over. Come on over.
Ann: I mean, listen, I'm essentially describing the experience of sleeping over at your house. [Laughs] Which is free-99 for me. The emotional toll on you is probably a little bit different.
Aminatou: I love it.
(7:55)
Ann: But yeah, so to answer it on a true feeling level of when does my body feel rich, it is that. Like a post-spa kind of feeling. It is not unrelated to that idea of I got to do something luxurious with my time because I am wealthy enough to not have to work around the clock which meant that I got to take this time for relaxation which is -- I mean I know Jenny Odell and I talked about that in this interview that I did with her a few weeks ago on the show, I mean probably more than a few weeks ago now, what is time? But I do think one of the unfortunate things about living in accelerated capitalist America is time is actually a luxury now. And not just a thing we say but like a privileged afforded to the people who are relatively rich.
Aminatou: It is.
Ann: And so it's interesting that I understand that both intellectually and when I think about how do I feel wealth in my body it is about that, like usually I have taken time on a beach, in a spa, away from my daily grind.
Aminatou: It just brings up so many feelings. And I remember you saying also previously that sometimes you'll buy something at the grocery store that makes you feel rich.
Ann: Oh my god, when I don't check the label or if I don't check the price on something expensive or if I buy myself a super-duper treat when I don't have company coming over and I don't have a reason. I'm just like no, I just want to eat this delicious thing. I also feel rich then.
Aminatou: That's true. I'm like I have a fancy yogurt that I like a lot and any time I'm like you know what? I'm just getting the yogurt. When I go to the grocery store for just one thing that also feels like an extravagance. And I think also just having flowers in my space. Any time I buy flowers for myself I'm like wow. It's never very expensive but it always makes me feel like wow, this is an upgrade I should be looking into more often.
Ann: Right, because unlike something like even an expensive food item is a you are getting nutrients and sustenance from it right? Like you have to eat a meal that day. Why not make it a fancy one? But flowers are one of these pure it is just for your aesthetic enjoyment or maybe your olfactory enjoyment, you know? It is not something that has any kind of "practical" justification and that is extremely luxurious.
Aminatou: So many feelings!
(10:05)
Ann: The other angle on money and feelings, especially as it relates to the kinds of things we talk about on this show all the time, is how it comes up in interpersonal relationships. And, you know, people will say all the time it's like a trope about romantic partnership that money is one of these things that will drive couples apart or if people don't talk about it in their relationship it'll become this source of difficulty and fester. But I think that is also true for friendship.
Aminatou: I mean I think it's definitely true for friendship. It's just that in friendship you can pretend to never talk about money, right? It's like if you are in a romantic relationship with someone or, you know, your like parents and children, money is an inevitable topic you want to deal with whether you want to deal with it or not. But with friends everybody can just pretend that everything is okay and/or, you know . . . and it's also very -- you know, society says that it's very impolite to talk about. And so you know me, I'm the impolite friend. I think it's really important to talk to your friends about money.
Ann: The thing you said about how you are kind of not forced to talk about it in the same way in friendship is true but also not true. I mean the way that -- at least like my life is intertwined with my friends, it's not overt in the sense that we pay a gas bill together maybe. But it is the sense of oh, we are coming together to do things that have a price tag attached often. And so the choices surrounding what the activities we do are, do we do something that's free-99 or do we do something that is an extravagant dinner?
Aminatou: Right.
Ann: And, you know, what are the different friends' constraints or even anxieties or feelings about that? I think that it actually is something that even if you don't talk about it, much like in romantic relationship, it's going to come to the fore because the assumption is you're sharing meals. You're sharing social activities.
Aminatou: Right.
(11:58)
Ann: You're maybe invited to the same weddings or birthday parties. All of that stuff is money conversations that you're not having overtly with friends that are still causing stress and strain if you don't address it overtly.
Aminatou: Right. And I think to clarify I guess what I really mean is that there is a way in friendship that you get away with not knowing the context in which people have or don't have money in friendship, right?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: You're going to spend it or not spend it. It's going to be a stressor or not a stressor. The classic example is the birthday dinner.
Ann: Dun, dun, dun. [Laughs]
Aminatou: You know, like there's -- right, like things will always crop up. But I think that in friendship you can get away with not knowing the context of how your friends are doing financially because unless you ask overtly and the person tells you overtly there is no reason to have that information with each other. And also people's financial situations are in flux all of the time. And so if you don't have that context I feel that especially with friends it's hard to be making thoughtful decisions about each other if you don't know that that's a data point that you should be considering for example, right?
Ann: Right.
Aminatou: Like I think a lot about friends who have a lot of like school debt for example and how that is a stressor that is always in the back of everybody's mind. And it's not something that comes up all of the time. Michael Arceneaux, friend-of-the-podcast, has written a lot about this in the New York Times and like he tweets a lot about it just of the stress of having a financial burden like that. It just makes me realize so much of how much we don't say to each other. There are all sorts of things that we do for each other or we want to do for each other that should be informed by financial conversations that we do or don't have.
Ann: Well it's interesting because for me I know you referred to yourself as the impolite friend or whatever and I feel I am also talking pretty frankly about money or asking about it with people I'm really close to. And so for example friends of mine who have recently had a kid or bought a house or just moved or just had a career shakeup or just had a medical thing happen, I have that info about how that's affecting them financially because I am really close to the source. And I think where it gets harder for me is that like next layer out of friendship where I'm like okay, I see you around and I have like, you know, a lot of the surface-level details about your life but I'm not really checking in with you every single week and so I don't have the same level of like info about what the implications of those big things are financially for you.
(14:40)
And it's really interesting, like just this morning I -- so I'm invited to a birthday dinner this week where I know the person whose birthday it is and like one other person who's going very well. And then there are -- it's a small group but there are several other people going who I've met and I know but are not close friends. And I was thinking about this, there was a no gifts request. But I know this person is really invested in immigrants rights and so I was like okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to make a donation towards someone else getting their DACA paperwork renewed as a gift for this person's birthday. And I mentioned to the other close friend who I'm going with who I happy to know could probably afford to like, you know, meet me halfway on the cost of something like that and she was like "Yes, let's do it. Great idea."
And I had this debate about do I email the group of people who I don't know as well and say "Hey, we're doing this. Do you want to get in on it?" Because I'm like -- I don't know, I had a whole debate about whether I should just say let's go four ways which I didn't end up saying and instead I just sent the link and it was like we're donating here, but it was a very real question where I was like oh, I could breach this directly because I was really close to one person and the other people I'm like maybe -- maybe splitting the group dinner is where they're at financially and now they're going to feel pressured by my email being like this is what I did. It really is a thing that comes up unexpectedly. Like I wasn't really thinking about it at the outset as something that had to do with my level of my relationship with these people and money and it very quickly became that.
(16:15)
Aminatou: Right, like I think that's such a good example because it encapsulates a lot of stressors right?
Ann: Yes.
Aminatou: And I think the place that I fall on this is just maximum transparency and also no pressure. Like I -- my stance usually on like hi, the way that I like to share what's up, like where I'm at financially or when I ask people for things, it's because I just want to have enough information that anybody can make decisions according to their own values, right? So for like your birthday dinner example I would probably be like hi, no pressure. This is what I am doing if some of you need ideas for what you want to do. And if you want to join me, join me. Everything is always opt-in.
Ann: That is legit how my email was worded. I'm glad we are on the same page, yeah.
Aminatou: Yeah. I was like I think that the wording and the intention really matters, right? And so you're not like "Hi, this is the . . ." You're not imposing yourself as much as you were like -- because I always err on the side of if I'm nervous about something I am now old enough that I know someone else is nervous about that same thing. You know what I mean? Where I'm like oh, great, this is part of being an adult. Just say out loud the thing you're nervous about because somebody else will breathe a sigh of relief with you which is always very exciting to me.
It's also just very telling how people receive this kind of information generally. If talking about money is the thing that stresses your relationship out my sense is that that relationship was going to be stressed already, you know? It's like if there are things that you just can't say then you just can't say them. And every friend group has their own norms, right? Like I don't think that all of this applies to everyone. And I'm thinking about a talk that I gave about ambition at The Wing in LA recently where this -- a woman said, and I'm not . . . I just remember snippets of what she said but I just remember it stayed so much with me about how with her close friends they essentially have a financial day, like a check-in that they have, and they really . . .
Ann: What? That is blowing my mind.
(18:15)
Aminatou: I know, but they set it up as like an informed consent is important for everyone. Enthusiastic consent is important. So they set an intention. They set boundaries around what you can and cannot talk about, like what the triggers are and all of these things. And I just really remember thinking about wow, this is such an intentional way of saying we are close friends, we're a community, this is a thing that's stressful for us and let's talk about it.
Somebody else at one of these talks pointed out once that with their coworkers, so not necessarily friends but they're obviously people they were friendly with, that the way they . . . they all kind of worked at the same company and they wanted to find out what their salaries were essentially. But that's like a hard thing to talk about. And so what they did is they all wrote their number down and put it in a bowl and then picked out and looked at them on the table and it was like oh, this is the range of what everyone is making.
Ann: Oh wow, that's such a good idea.
Aminatou: I thought that was such a good idea in a non-confrontational, you know, tension-diffusing kind of way of doing that. And just that has really stuck with me where it's like even for someone like me who I tend to be impolite and there's not a lot I'm afraid of, I don't do this with everyone and there's obviously lines and boundaries. You can't be asking people about money if you're not like accountable to them. But I think if you're generally friendly with people, your friends, and this is something you think will help your relationship grow there are ways to do it where you all acknowledge like hi, this is awkward and weird but we're doing it because we're all trying to grow together.
(19:40)
Ann: Right. And if you acknowledge the feelings component right out of the gate I think it's also helpful, right? Where it's like if you can just say we're doing a thing that is really emotional and loading, even though it seems like we're doing something that is spreadsheet practical, it is I think more helpful because then it allows people to feel the feelings they're going to feel about how sensitive the conversation really is.
(20:00)
Aminatou: Right. And I have to say too that something that's been very instructive for me have been moments where I was very broke or very financially strained. Saying out loud that I couldn't afford something and bucking that pressure, it really taught me a lot about releasing shame about money and asking for help or at least asking for relief. And I think it teaches you a lot about who your friends are. Like I have someone that I told them I couldn't afford to be their bridesmaid because at the time I fully couldn't. I was like this is too much money. And they got really upset and we're no longer friends.
Ann: Very telling. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right, that's like very telling. And now that I'm in a different financial situation I'm like that's insane that that's what happened, you know what I mean?
Ann: Wow, that person is missing out on so many good smells right now. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Right? I'm like you know what? I was like listen, I didn't have money then but now we have Beyoncé ticket money, you know what I'm saying?
Ann: Yeah.
Aminatou: And there are also people where when I got vulnerable enough and said "Hey, actually I cannot afford this trip" or "I cannot afford dinner" either they bought me the dinner or they took me on the trip with them or they said actually let's stay in and watch TV.
And so I'm a firm believer that with your close friends there's a minimum of honesty about this. It all kind of evens out in the grand scheme of your friendship. Like I'm not -- who was the last person I bought dinner to? Who's the next person I have to buy dinner for? I don't really keep track, but when I can I try to be generous because people have been very generous with me.
Ann: I love that. The overall like not keeping score but emotionally wanting things to be fair.
Aminatou: Right.
[Ads]
(24:28)
Aminatou: This is making me feel a lot of things. Money conversations are feelings conversations. You're totally right.
Ann: Well and on that note we asked all of you listeners for your questions about money, particularly as it relates to feelings and relationships, and Gina took some of those questions to Reema Khrais who hosts the podcast This is Uncomfortable from Marketplace which LOL this is uncomfortable. [Laughs] And so here is Gina and Reema with some answers to your questions.
[Interview Starts]
Gina: Reema Khrais, thanks so much for being on Call Your Girlfriend.
Reema: Thanks Gina, happy to be here.
Gina: How's it going?
Reema: I'm good.
Gina: Good, good.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: We're going to talk about money.
Reema: Yes. I'm excited.
Gina: Yes.
Reema: Let's talk about it.
Gina: This first voicemail is from Rachel in New York.
Rachel: I'd like to ask about money and relationships. Like many of my friends I grew up with divorced parents and finances played a very large role in their divorce. Now that I'm older I have no idea what roles money should and shouldn't play in a healthy relationship with another person. So I'd love to know how you think financial matters can be navigated between partners as romantic relationships become more serious. Thank you so much. Bye.
Gina: Ooh, Rachel, this is a big question.
Reema: It's a big question. [Laughs] Well it's interesting she said her parents got divorced over money. Like money is actually the number one reason for divorces which was wild when I first heard that stat and it's just a big source of tension in relationships in general. This is something I think a lot of people are trying to figure out, like how to bring up money in relationships is something I've been struggling with too. And so I think it depends on which stage of the relationship you're in, right?
(26:00)
Like if you're dating more the conversation is more in line of like is it within your budget to go out for dinner? Who's going to split the check when we go out or how are we going to split it? But if you're in a more serious relationship I think the conversation shifts a little bit. I think the number one thing is just to be like honest and open and approach conversations without judgment. You know, don't go to your partner and be like "How much do you have in debt? Why are you in debt?" Some of the more successful conversations end up being when the people in the partnership strip the emotion out of the conversation that they're having and just really approach it as a very practical thing.
Like I talked with this one couple where they will literally set aside time, put it on their calendars. They'll go outside of their home to like a restaurant or coffee shop and have a very intentional conversation about money.
Gina: Like a business meeting.
Reema: Yeah, it actually is like a business meeting which makes a lot of sense. Like when I first heard it I was like that's not sexy or romantic. [Laughs] But it's so funny, in the first episode of my podcast I talked with this one couple and they make a whole ritual out of it. So they'll literally, on a Friday or a Saturday night, they'll sit in their living room and they'll put on R&B music, they'll light a candle, and they'll pull out their laptops and go over their spreadsheets. And it's like a thing that they just love to do and it's made it easier for them to talk about money.
Gina: They bring the sexy intentionally.
Reema: Yes, exactly.
Gina: Yep. [Laughs]
Reema: And so no two people in any relationship are going to agree on everything, and especially when it comes to money it all comes down to compromises and just making financial decisions together. And I think if you're overwhelmed by it one way to approach the conversation is to think about it in terms of goals, like that's a more positive way to frame it. And then I think once you sit down I don't think you should be afraid to share the details like how much do you make? How much debt do you have? How much do you have in savings? What's your credit score?
(27:42)
And also just talk about your money beliefs, like I think that's something that I'm still trying to figure out too. Like how do you feel about money? How did money come up for you and your family? Did your parents talk with you about it? What's your relationship? Because I think once you understand your own relationship . . . I mean it's almost like how they say in a relationship you should know yourself before you get in a -- that cliché?
Gina: The RuPaul.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: If you don't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love anyone else, right? Yeah.
Reema: Yeah. But there might be some truth in it when it comes to money, like I think you need to understand what your sort of financial goals are. Like what are your deal breakers? What are you willing to compromise on? And I think once you have a healthy relationship with money it'll be easier to have that conversation with someone.
Gina: Totally. People have different styles around how they think about their money, how they spend it, how they want to allocate their budgets and this is an area where you can potentially grow together. So it's both having your own autonomy because I think it is very important for women in particular to have our own path to financial security. You know, part of what Reema is alluding to is that money can cause people to break up. It can also cause people to stay in relationships that don't serve them. So I think it does make sense to have a little bit-by-bit plan to get your money right like we're always saying around here. But it is an area where you and your partner can grow together and you get to make some choices. So I think asking those questions that are kind of tough but in a sensitive way. And also like if you're not kinky for spreadsheets that's fine.
Reema: [Laughs]
Gina: Maybe your partner isn't either, right? You'll either balance of this is more one person can be more meticulous about that just like one person is more meticulous about how they load the dishwasher. Avoiding money entirely is definitely the biggest sin in this area. Don't do that. As a child of divorce I also want to chime in too to say you may be used to navigating different frames from each of your family environments, right? I don't know if you spend time equally with each of your parents but when families do change over money it becomes much more starkly clear who has what beliefs. And it may take some time to disentangle what you were taught from what you want for yourself but on the other hand you kind of have a cheat sheet to see that everybody does this differently and that's like a superpower that you can bring into your relationships. Being a child of divorce isn't only a liability.
(30:14)
Reema: That's such a great point. Yeah, I think it's important to make the decisions together so you don't feel like it creates an unequal power dynamic or you know what's going on. And like having the conversation of if it is serious do you want to have a joint account or are you going to have separate accounts? Should there be a designated CFO of the family or the partnership? Whatever makes sense for you all to reduce the potential for arguments.
Gina: This next question comes from Lucia in Massachusetts.
Lucia: I'm calling to ask what you two think about unpaid internships and practicums. I just completed 400 hours of an unpaid practicum to become a licensed teacher in my state and I just graduated and now I'm in thousands of dollars' worth of debt. For many people this kind of internship or practicum is impossible to do and I think that it connects a lot to the fact that people in the teaching profession are middle class white people. So I'm just wondering what you two think about this.
Reema: Yeah, that's so real. It's funny because I was actually having a conversation to my sister not too long ago, she's a special ed teacher and she wants to advance in her career, and she sort of faced a similar predicament where she was like should I take on all of these unpaid hours eventually for something that could benefit her more down the line and she decided to do it. But it's like a thing I think a lot of people struggle with because that obviously -- that came at a big cost for her and her family and her son. I've also done unpaid internships and maybe you have too.
Gina: I have, yeah.
(31:45)
Reema: Yeah. I feel like it's this paradoxical thing where it is a burden to take on but it also is very much a privilege to be able to make that kind of investment. You know, I've had several friends who've taken on unpaid internships and had to quit later on, or maybe they don't -- you know, they haven't even been able to consider it. I think it's frustrating, at least for me personally, to think about all of the people who are shut off from those opportunities, many times people of color, people from low-income backgrounds, who can't afford to take on an internship in a city like New York or D.C. where a lot of unpaid internships for certain industries exist.
And especially in industries like journalism and arts and politics, like those are where a lot of the unpaid internships are and that's where representation matters the most. So it's frustrating to think that a lot of people can't even consider these opportunities because it just -- I mean how are they going to foot that bill if their parents can't do it? And many times the average rent for an apartment is the same as a monthly mortgage payment.
Gina: I think people who listen to the show a lot maybe know that I started my career in radio first as an unpaid and then later as a paid intern and here we are sitting recording in the fabulous Marketplace recording studios. Thanks for lending them to us, Reema. This is a place that I got because my mom could let me move home and I didn't have to pay rent in L.A. and that's where my career started.
Reema: Oh wow.
Gina: So it's a really fucked-up class dynamic that perpetuates itself through the existence of these internships.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: If you are in a position to pay someone do so. Even if you work for a non-profit, if you're like "We can take on an unpaid intern," if they're genuinely a student and they're getting credit that matters for their degree maybe. But even a small amount goes a long way.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: And it means that your organization, your company, your entity can play a role in giving opportunities to people who need them most and not creating barriers of access because of financial hardship. As an individual this is a little bit like navigating capitalism.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: Where you're kind of like it's the game that we're all playing. And so for Lucia we really hear your dilemma here, your anxiety, and I think it's completely reasonable.
(34:00)
Reema: And I feel like in many ways the unpaid internship is like the new entry level position which makes it even more difficult to get your foot in the door in certain industries. So many of the internships require so much experience. And I do think that unpaid internships in a lot of ways end up disproportionately hurting women because they're the ones who are more likely to think that they're not qualified for certain jobs and that they have to take an unpaid internship before they can get -- you know, before they can really get started in the industry.
Gina: Right. We know that the more marginalized you are the more that credentials matter, or at least our internal perceptions of how important credentials are.
Reema: Exactly.
Gina: So if you don't think you're going to be taken seriously because of some factor or factors of your identity it's very tempting to say well I can always pull out my certificate, my degree, and that does go a long way. So you're not wrong in thinking that this could be really valuable. And if you're someone who's looking for a policy issue to take up this is a great one to start in your state, in your community. If you're someone who's looking to help fund people I think that this is also a great issue to consider. You know, how can you create buckets of money for people to access? Like the whole rotary club world doesn't exist anymore the same way it did to help middle class white people go to college in the '70s and '80s. So maybe there's a new, progressive version of that we could explore. Next caller is anonymous.
Caller: Hi there. My question is about student debt and relationships. I'm so lucky I don't have student debt anymore. It is all paid off. However my partner has a lot of student debt and they feel a lot of anxiety and sadness, and neither of us has very much knowledge about how to deal with the extent of this debt. Neither of our families are super equipped to help out with this information. So I think pointing me or us in the direction of resources to help mitigate debt would be very helpful.
(36:08)
Reema: So her story is -- that's super common, right? Like being in a relationship where one person has debt and the other one doesn't. I've talked with a couple of couples who are in similar scenarios and it sounds like you two are pretty committed. But I do think it's important before you decide how to tackle on the debt that you know that you're onboard too. I think you have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself is the debt something that you're emotionally and financially maybe even willing to take on? In terms of practical tips it makes -- first of all you just need to come up with a plan, right? Like it's going to be hard to make any progress if you don't have like a road map. Without a road map it'll make it easier to maybe say yes to the dinner or to go on a trip without really recognizing where you are in terms of your finances and it'll make it easier to sort of rein back the spending.
So in order to make that plan I think you should get it -- you know, you all should get a good handling of the debt, right? Make a list of all the debt, the interest rates, the minimum payment. Just really understand how much you have. And I think from there there are two options, right? You just spend less or you make more money. That's going to be hard for a lot of people to make more money. So spending less, I think the first thing is just to make a budget right? Track your spending. Know what's going in and out. It's something I think everyone really should do including myself where you . . . [Laughter] Like I think it'd be astonishing. You will surprise yourself I think if you go through and really comb through your finances because odds are you can probably find something that you can get rid of whether it's like a high cell phone bill -- or at least reduce, right? Maybe you don't need that Hulu subscription if there are any redundancies.
(37:42)
Gina: This isn't the latte factor, right? These are bigger ongoing things.
Reema: That's true, yeah, exactly. But you'll just get a good sense of where the money is going. And there are different ways to track that like Mint is an app a lot of people use. I know a lot of people also use youneedabudget.com. Those are good tools.
Gina: Yeah, there's like a thriving Reddit world around budgeting.
Reema: Oh my god, yeah, if you just type in Reddit and budgeting. And it's very organized too.
Gina: These people are kinky for spreadsheets, yeah.
Reema: They are. They definitely are. So if you are to go check that out there are definitely cheap ways to get access to budget spreadsheets instead of having to pay. But I do think it is good to just make sense of your budget. And then there's also, when thinking about budgeting, there's the 50/30/20 rule. Have you heard of that?
Gina: No, what's that?
Reema: So 50% of your money goes to basic necessities to live so like housing, electricity. And so 30% should go towards wants, so trips you want to go on or dining out or . . .
Gina: Dining out, a new suit for work. Yeah.
Reema: Exactly. Then 20% should go towards helping pay for debt and saving. And so another way, sometimes people look at it as 80/20 but the idea is you're setting aside 20% of your budget to go towards helping that debt. Then there are a couple ways to help pay down that debt. There's like a couple methods. I don't know if you've heard of these but there's like the snowball and the avalanche method. [Laughs] So the avalanche method, you essentially list all of your debts. You put the one with the highest interest rate at top and then you work on paying off your debts with that goal in mind first. And then that way you have -- you're basically, in the long term, you're paying less debt over time.
Gina: I think some people call this the Dave Ramsey method. He's like obsessed about this. And the idea is the thing that kills you is paying so much interest as it continues to bloom.
Reema: Exactly.
Gina: So you sort of go in the highest interest to lowest.
Reema: Exactly.
Gina: And like focus all of your attention. And this is really important too for people who have credit card debt. Student debt tends to have lower interest rates on average if you have government loans. Private loans are pretty different.
(39:54)
Reema: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that's the avalanche method. Then the snowball method, basically you start with your lowest payment that you have to do and that way it's more of like a psychological win so you're like okay, got that done, and you're building momentum and it makes it easier to tackle it on. You know, and you can Google and look into more of those sorts of methods. But I think it's a helpful way to think about it. There are different ways to just automatically save money like I used to use Digit. I know it was great. It basically siphons money out of your checking account and puts them into savings account so you don't have to think about it.
Gina: And it's like rounding up cents and a couple dollars here and there right?
Reema: Exactly.
Gina: Or you can set targets for it.
Reema: Right, so you don't feel it as much. And then also I've talked with people who've just found more creative ways like I know there's the envelope method where you essentially figure out what your allowance should be for the week and then you get an envelope and you put that money in there. We know that when you have to pay for cash it's more painful and you're just more cognizant of it. And so literally people just get rid of their credit cards if they can, like out of sight, out of mind. So that is also one method if you just want to go use cash.
Gina: Yeah. And I feel like underneath everything you're saying is kind of back to the emotional piece of this that the listener raised which is you have to face it.
Reema: Yeah.
Gina: And that can be the hardest thing of all. And so these tactics and tools are nice ways to sort of have a frame or almost have a game, like gamify it, because unfortunately again capitalism is a game and we're just the ones stuck playing. But in the meantime how can you make the enormity a little bit smaller and chip away at one small piece at a time? For your partner they may be having a hard time with sort of the identity of being in debt and you may not be able to guide them to some more positive vision of themselves but ultimately that's going to be really important that their value as a human and what they can bring to society isn't just this number on a ledger.
(42:00)
Reema: Yeah. And I think it's important, you know, if this is a serious, committed relationship that you signal to them that you're in it, right? Like you're helping them. And you can decide between the two of you if that means financially too. But at least emotionally there's no judgment there. It sounds like you're in a committed relationship but if you're not and it's something that is weighing on you I think it's important to really be honest with yourself too and figure out what role can you play in this relationship and is this something that you are able to manage with them?
Gina: Totally. I was going to say in the same way that you need to have kind of a plan or a system or a more bounded way of approaching the financial aspect of this you may also need some boundaries about the anxiety, the stress this is causing your partner. They're going to need to find some outlets that are not dumping on you. And if this is such the totalizing emotion of your relationship you might consider whether that's okay for you. You'll figure out what's right for you. One thing I would say is if they're really struggling and hitting a place of anxiety or depression things that you should not cut out are things like therapy if it's possible. There are other episodes where we've talked about tools for finding low-cost therapy. You can use some of the apps. You can go to students who are working in this field who are getting their training kind of like we were talking about the internships before, right? [Laughs]
Reema: Who are doing their practicums, yeah.
Gina: Those folks are in training. Having people to talk to and not having this be as I said before kind of the only subject of your relationship even though it feels so totalizing is going to be really important for having kind of the emotional fortitude to deal with it.
Reema: Mm-hmm. And if you do want more practical resources and maybe are feeling overwhelmed and want to see a financial counselor a good resource is the National Foundation for Credit Counseling, nfcc.org. They're a non-profit so it's a little bit more low-cost and you can find a local counselor in your area just as an option.
Gina: Awesome. Good luck listener.
Reema: Yeah, good luck.
Gina: Our next call is from Carrie in Minneapolis who has two different questions. Here's the first one.
(44:04)
Carrie: Hi Ann, Amina, and Gina. It's Carrie calling from Minneapolis. Two things that I have questions about constantly is how much money to save versus invest. If you have a 401 through your work should you also get a Roth IRA or should you allocate that money towards a different type of diversified investment portfolio?
Reema: Yeah, these are all very good and important questions that I've been trying to figure out too. So yeah, financial experts, it seems to vary. Like most of them say three to six months is a generally good rule of thumb, so you're . . .
Gina: For your emergency savings.
Reema: For your emergency savings.
Gina: And what is an emergency savings?
Reema: So . . .
Gina: Isn't it like what you spend each month, your total everything, your rent, your car payment, extras.
Reema: Exactly, yeah. And there are emergency fund calculators, I was playing with one the other day, where you can put in everything and see how much money that would actually be and figure out what's reasonable for you and realistic. Like we're really bad at savings, like there's studies that show like almost half of Americans don't have like $400 saved up for an emergency fund which is very real right? So just to put this into perspective that it is very hard to do these things.
Gina: And if you haven't yet there's time to work on this.
Reema: There is time, exactly. Don't feel overwhelmed by it. Think about just doing a rainy fund if you can. That's a little bit more manageable. That's two weeks to -- generally it's like two weeks of pay to a thousand dollars. That'll just help cover any unexpected things that come up and it's good to have if you can. So when it comes to savings I think it's important to look at what, like I said, is reasonable for you. So if you can do minimum that's great. If you can do six to nine months that's great. I think the next step after that, even if you do have an employer that sets up a 401K for you that's great and you should do that. And I think the important thing to keep in mind is to max out the matching contribution if you can. Like this is something that I've only learned recently and it's so important. That's just free money. Like you're literally leaving money on the table if you don't do that. Match each dollar if you can.
(46:08)
And then I think after that if you feel like you still do have savings like it sounds like what you do what makes the most sense is to consider a Roth IRA. It's something that I've actually been thinking about in your message and I want to go do right away too. It's really smart and easy if you can do it because it's basically, for people who don't know what a Roth IRA is because I definitely didn't until like last year, it's a retirement account that you've already paid taxes on so it's generally good for people early in their careers if they think they're going to make more money in life because your money's going to keep growing and you've already paid a lower tax rate on it if you do it now.
I talked to someone actually who referred to it as an emergency fund on steroids because unlike other retirement accounts it's a place where you can actually pull money from if you really need to. Like you don't want to but if you need to you can.
Gina: And compared to a 401K or other retirement accounts where there are big tax penalties for doing that.
Reema: Exactly.
Gina: Like you can lose 50% of the value if you have to pull it out early.
Reema: Yeah, exactly. So it makes sense to consider a Roth IRA if you can.
Gina: And then if you've got some left over there's lots of different apps that can help you with investing. Some people like to go and buy their own Vanguard funds. Some people work with a financial adviser. There's products like Robinhood that do the automated investing. So if you're in the happy camp of having too much money that you are looking to save there's lots of fun avenues for you to explore.
Reema: Yeah. And I think personally this question really resonated for me because I do think oftentimes women -- myself included -- feel like they can't invest or they don't know how to invest and it just feels overwhelming. I saw this study the other day that basically said growing up girls are more likely to be taught how to save whereas boys are more likely taught how to invest. There is this study I saw actually, I kind of want to pull it up because I thought it was really interesting. So it said that girls are more likely to be taught fiscal restraint growing up whereas boys are more likely to be taught about building wealth. So for example 61% of boys got a lesson from their parents on credit scores by the time they reached high school compared to 46% of girls. Boys were also more likely to be taught how to pay taxes, more likely to be taught bank accounts, and more likely to be taught credit cards and get an education on investing. So like early on there's this gap of knowledge that's happening.
(48:28)
And when I read that I couldn't help but think of my own life and my dad, he's a nurse but he's super into stocks and investing and he's never taught me anything. And I've also never asked to be fair. But actually I was just texting with my brother who's 17 so there's a big age gap between us and I was like "Hey, I'm curious has baba ever taught you anything about investing?" And he was like "Oh yeah, we're actually sitting down next week and I'm going to download Robinhood and go through some basic stock options and try to figure out -- like get my head wrapped around that." So just seeing the own disparity in my own family is wild.
Gina: How did you feel about that?
Reema: It honestly made me sad. [Laughs] I was happy that my brother was getting that information early on but yeah, it made me sad. And I don't blame my dad. I think so much of it is just the way we're like -- you know, I never approached him but also I'm sure he assumed that maybe I didn't want to or that I, you know, it felt overwhelming to me which it did. But yeah, it's just wild that the discrepancy is just even in my family right?
Like the first real conversation I ever had with my dad about money, like truly real, was for this podcast for This is Uncomfortable where I sat down with him and I was like "Hey baba, how much money do you think I should have saved by now?" And he was like "Oh, probably like $100,000." Which I was like what? That's crazy. [Laughs] Like no, there's no world in which that would happen. But it's just funny. It blew my mind to think how far off my dad and I are in terms of financial goals and what's realistic. My dad's not like a wealthy man. You know, he's a nurse, but just thinking about his expectations for me versus mine and . . .
Gina: And how much is unstated.
(50:12)
Reema: Right, exactly. And that is true even among friends too right? Not even in families. And so I do think that women in general are less likely to receive this education and I think because of the way we're conditioned and taught to put family first for example studies have shown that we're less likely to take risks and more likely to prepare for families or for the fact that we do live longer and outlive our spouses and that affects how much money we're going to set aside and how we're going to handle it.
You know, as we grow up we are used to seeing images and portrayals in media and in our own lives of women being incapable of making financial decisions. And so it just feeds into our own perceptions of our ability. Oh, and something else that was interesting that's just like a good point to make is the gender pay gap exists, right?
Gina: Right.
Reema: Like the woman earns like 80% of the average man.
Gina: And that's the average white woman and white man right?
Reema: Exactly. Exact.
Gina: Then it goes exponentially, right? Like Latinas are the lowest-paid of any category.
Reema: And so that obviously affects how much you're going to also invest and how much you're going to have for retirement and savings. And so we see that gap perpetuate even in that regard too.
Gina: So all to say that if like this listener you do have some cash to invest get it. Get rich.
Reema: Get that money. Then teach all of your friends, yes. [Laughter] Including me.
Gina: Yeah, and me. And Carrie from Minneapolis had another question that we were also interested in so let's listen to that.
Carrie: In terms of how money affects our relationship me and my partner both really like to take each other out on dates, split costs. We've discussed 50/50 but I'm really unsure how to approach that when we both earn different amounts. She's in school right now, has some loans, has a different type of job as me and I never know how to approach the conversation when -- who pays for what and when and should it be 50/50 or more like a percentage of your income? So anyways thanks so much for the work you guys do. See you on the Internet. Bye!
(52:15)
Gina: Okay, first of all I think it's very cute that you and your partner like to take each other on dates. Romantic. I love it.
Reema: [Laughs] Yeah. That's -- I totally get that question. I mean I think there are a lot of people who are in that predicament, right? I have a lot of friends who one person is making a lot of money and the other person isn't, or in your case one person's making a lot of money and the other person's in debt. And I think to some degree it's not so much a personal finance question as much as it is a relationship question, right? Like you can ask so many couples and they'll have different ways of handling it. Many people like doing 50/50. Other people are very adamant about doing a percentage of your income. So I would definitely suggest talk with your partner about it and if you do foresee a serious relationship you want to make sure there isn't any resentment that builds or that any arrangement doesn't end up impacting the power dynamic in a way that feels unfair to her. You know, I talked with this one couple and they basically decided to split everything based on their income. It's not perfect science. I think some people are a little bit vague with it and others are more strict about it.
But I talked with this one couple. They were pretty strict about it. Their thing was we may not be equals on paper but we want to feel like there's a sense of equity in the relationship and so that was a thing that they came up with. But like I said it really is up to you, like there are all these different and creative ways that couples come up with to feel like there is fairness in the relationship. Like I talked with another couple, and prefacing this it sounds very backwards but they basically had a huge argument -- or they kept having this recurring argument over who was going to do the dishes. And basically in the end the woman decided to pay the man 50 dollars or 75 dollars a month to do the dishes each month.
Gina: He'd better be scrubbing the floors too.
Reema: I know, right? I know. But it was like -- it's a ridiculous situation but it was so that he would do the dishes on her timeline because he was doing them before but it wasn't necessarily on her timeline and she's the one who cooks anyway. We don't need to get into the particulars of their relationship.
Gina: But you're saying it works for them.
Reema: It works for them even if it sounds archaic and it is. But for them that's what feels the most fair. And so I think it's just important to have a conversation where, you know, you decide an arrangement where it doesn't fuck up the power dynamic and build resentment.
Gina: It's kind of not unlike different couples' bedroom activities right? Like what's great for someone else might be gross to you.
Reema: True.
Gina: But it's hard to know and it takes that navigation together. I also think it's worth keeping in mind I think this is a nice conversation to raise with your partner and leave some room for the fact that for her there may be something that's a nice gesture to also be able to take you out because people do have such emotional attachments to money. And I think the kind of ritual or the gift-giving quality or like ways of expressing generosity can be very deeply felt as markers of identity. And so if that for her is like the special treat, if that's the thing that gets her through to that final, maybe you figure something out where okay, if we're going to go out three times this month she pays for one of them. Or you cover something that's more expensive. But I love what Reema said about equity versus equality, right? That splitting things 50/50 sounds like it's -- yeah, there's equality, it's same/same, but it may not be sort of just or like fully -- yeah, I'll leave it there. So there's lots of different ways to do it and good luck having a cool convo with your partner about this. Reema thank you so much.
Reema: Yeah, thanks for having me.
(56:00)
Gina: Where can people find you?
Reema: Yeah, so you can listen to This is Uncomfortable wherever you get your podcasts and you can find me on Twitter at @reemakhrais.
Gina: And spell it for the people.
Reema: So it's R-E-E-M-A-K-H-R-A-I-S.
[Interview Ends]
Aminatou: Yes! Let's talk about money all the time.
Ann: Money, feelings, feelings about money. Yes. [Laughs]
Aminatou: Girl. Girl. I love this. I love this. Maximum transparency.
Ann: Ugh. All right, I'll see you in your banking app. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I'll see you at the bank boo-boo. We do have to go to the bank actually so . . . [Laughs]
Ann: It is true, we are in business together. Actually that is a thing that really has underscored the importance for me of being in business with friends is how open we can be with each other about the way that the work we do collectively is playing into our individual finances. That is a total side note but dang, I will see you at the bank. [Laughs]
Aminatou: I know, see you at the bank. I need a new computer, Ann. I need -- there's some really fancy socks I've been into. I'll send you the link.
Ann: We have a layaway program.
Aminatou: I know, thanks for being my friend. You're the best. Knew I could count on you.
Ann: [Laughs]
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet: callyourgirlfriend.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, we're on all your favorite platforms. Subscribe, rate, review, you know the drill. You can call us back. You can leave a voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. Our theme song is by Robyn, original music composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs. Our logos are by Kenesha Sneed. We're on Instagram and Twitter at @callyrgf where Sophie Carter-Kahn does all of our social. Our associate producer is Jordan Baley and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.