Looks Like We Made It

looks like we made it.jpg

5/17/19 - We reflect on how making Call Your Girlfriend has changed our friendship, and revisit some of the cringeworthy, hilarious, depressing, and proud moments we've had in five years of making this show.

Transcript below.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Overcast | Pocket Casts | Spotify.


Producer: Gina Delvac

Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman

Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn

Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs.

Associate Producer: Jordan Bailey

Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed

Merch Director: Caroline Knowles

Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci

Design Assistant: Brijae Morris

Ad sales: Midroll


Abortion is Our Right with Renee Bracey Sherman and Judith Arcana (and loads of reproductive rights and justice resources)

State-by-state abortion care and funds via Steph Herold



Episode 15: Origin Story


Episode 37: Thanksgiving Warriors

Episode 34: Sexy Bellybutton Feeling


Episode 57: Make America Smell Great Again [shoutout to Karen Pence’s towel charm business, whose former domain, towelcharm.com is now available]

Episode 56: Don’t Shoot: our first reported episode on gun violence, featuring voices of listeners who own guns and now Congresswoman Lucy McBath

Episode 68: Rage Phase: recorded Wednesday November 10, 2016 and released early that Thursday morning, this is our immediate post-election breakdown of the epic presidential loss, proportional Congressional gains and work we knew was ahead.


Episode 111: Hillary. Aminatou’s IRL interview with HRC.

Episode 118: Feminist Dystopia: We ask Margaret Atwood whether today’s political climate counts.

Episode 117: Pantsuits to Lawsuits: Ellen Pao on how she wanted to believe in tech meritocracy, even when confronted with 1950s style sexual harassment and a grueling trial.

Episode 109: Pelvic Power: taking our sexual and reproductive health into the hands of certified nurse midwives and other feminist practitioners.


A Taxonomy of Scammers: The grift is on in the summer of scam.

Bi Bi Bi: Gina’s episode on the letter B in the LGBTQ rainbow.




Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman. On this week's agenda it is our five-year anniversary! And we are talking about the ways that doing this podcast has affected our friendship and we're also taking a little stroll through our archive and playing a little taste of what we were airing in real-time for each of the five years that we've been around.

Aminatou: And before we do all of that if you live in the United States like us you are probably fuming mad about what's happening in Alabama and in Georgia and in a lot of other state legislatures around abortion access. It is really maddening and we are trying not to be discouraged by this. If you remember we did an episode called Abortion is Our Right in March -- we'll link to it in the show notes -- you know, that was really expanding on the fact that abortion rights are under attack. And that was true -- it was true in March; it was true last year; it was true 50 years ago and it's true right now. The opponents just like always come out of the woodwork and it really feels like a particularly vindictive assault right now.

And so in that episode we talk about reproductive justice and we talk with activist Renee Bracey Sherman and Judith Arcana about what to do in times like these. And so if you're feeling a little defeated by the news and you need some safe inspiration that episode's a good place to start. And also friend-of-the-podcast Steph Herald on Twitter has shared a state-by-state resource that you can look at to see what you can do about showing up in your state. And so we are going to share her Twitter thread as well and her Twitter handle is @StephHerold and you should follow her in general.

[Theme Song]


Aminatou: Happy anniversary.

Ann: Oh my god, happy friend anniversary and CYG anniversary. They are very, very close together for us.

Aminatou: True! This week we have been friends for ten years, one decade.

Ann: Ugh!

Aminatou: I know, it makes me sound like old in a way that I'm not resolved about yet. But also CYG is five years old this year! That is truly the thing I can't believe. Forget the other thing, I can't believe we've been doing this podcast for five years and that's half of our friendship!

Ann: Ugh. Should we just take a moment to listen to Shania Twain's You're Still the One and mentally slow dance with each other?

Aminatou: [Laughs] I'm holding you. I'm holding you from far away.


Ann: One thing we wanted to talk about today is a question we get all the time which is kind of a weird question for us but do you know the one I'm thinking of?

Aminatou: The how's doing a podcast changed your friendship question?

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: Probably not in the ways that people think it has, you know? And also all of our friendships are always changing.

Ann: And it's increasingly hard to answer because like we just said it's our ten year friend-a-versary but it's our five year podcast anniversary and so now -- the before and after are the same amount of time. That's enough time for things to shift in terms of social media and digital platforms where -- as spaces where friendship is enacted and performed.

Aminatou: Mm-hmm.

Ann: And ten years is definitely a lot of time for that. Maybe you can explain what we mean when we say like performed friendship because this is a thing we talk about ourselves but I'm not sure is a known turn of phrase.

Aminatou: Right. I mean I think what we talk about when we talk about friendship performance, right, are what are the rituals -- the things that you do to signal both to yourself and to the world that you are friends? And I think that our philosophy on this is that everybody is performing friendship at every time, right? It's not some nebulous the mean girl posting the photo of two out of three friends to make the third friend feel like they're not allowed. [Laughs]

Ann: Although that qualifies. It's just not owning that, yeah.

Aminatou: Oh yeah, that like 100% qualifies but I do think there are things that you do that you believe are private but then they're actually very public and everything is up for interpretation.

Ann: Yeah. So I think that performing friendship can look like anything from how you choose to tag or comment with or interact with or post photos of your friend online. It can look like how you are replying to that friend in the group text where other friends are present. It can look like what you say about your friendship when you're asked about it by a third party. They're all just glimpses that you're allowing the wider world to have into this unique thing that only the two of you who are in it fully, fully understand.


Aminatou: Right. And we have a very extreme version of this because one . . .

Ann: So extreme. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Which I love, you know? But also, you know, interacting with us on this podcast is not a real representation of the totality of our friendship.

Ann: If you asked me to list maybe the ways it would be weird to be in a public friendship I wouldn't have identified the fact that it feels super strange to have strangers recognize that you're a close friend of mine but not recognize other friendships that are also extremely important to me. You know, I have this level of insecurity that oh, does my oldest forever BFF Bridget who I just had my 25 year friend-a-versary with, I've never asked her how do you feel about people not knowing that you're important to me in the way people know Amina's important to me? And I don't know that she cares because she knows she's important to me but it's weird there's this lopsided, public idea of each of our friend ecosystems I guess.

Aminatou: I mean I think that even that kind of question or that, I don't know, that frame is very grounded in friendship performance because a thing that I am constantly trying to interrogate with myself is why is it important that people know who is close to me? People who are outside of the friendship, not people who are inside the friendship. But just who are the people in your life and how do people know you that way? That's an interesting frame to me as well, like why does it actually matter?

Ann: I will admit that I like it when people I care about know who else matters to me or I like -- you know, if someone is a close friend to me I usually am obsessed with them and I think that they . . . not usually, I am obsessed with them and I think that they are the coolest, best, most interesting, like politically-relevant, like you fill in the blank compliment person that I know. And so of course I want to be associated with them.


Aminatou: Don't you think that's true amongst your closest friends? Like your closest friends know who your closest friends are?

Ann: Yeah. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, when you say that that frame work is rooted in performing friendship at all I'm like yes, totally. I think that I . . . I think what I'm trying to cop to is that I revel in that aspect of it, you know what I mean? Like there's a part of me that really likes it even though I understand that that is not like . . . I don't mistake that for the substance of the friendship itself.

Aminatou: Can you speak to how . . . I love that I'm interviewing you now. [Laughs] How it feels different doing the show now? Five years ago I will say that I was way more -- probably my chief anxiety was how I was doing as a host. And, you know, over the years hopefully it comes across that I've gotten better at that. If anything it feels slightly easier than it did. Does it feel different doing the show now between the two of us?

Ann: Well yeah. I mean now it's just -- and that goes back to that question about has the show changed your friendship? Now it's just like it's baked in. It's like adjacent to. It is part of what it means to be in each other's lives that we do the show together which is so weird to say that out loud. Like I don't think that if we stopped doing the show our friendship would disappear. I don't mean it's like central. I don't think it's the linchpin. But I think that yeah, now it's just in there forever. It's like yeah, we might take a trip together some summer or we might not or we might do some other thing together or not but like the podcast is just like it's always there.

Aminatou: True. I agree with that.

Ann: I don't know, how do you feel about that?

Aminatou: I agree with most of that. I think probably the thing that I feel like has changed -- has changed, and it probably is because we're so much more confident, it's not a place where I feel . . . you know, the earlier challenges of just trying to figure shit out also meant that even though I always had full confidence we would figure it out there's just like no fear of ugh, I'm going to fuck up something so bad on this show that Ann's never going to want to be my friend or talk to me or -- you know?

Ann: You were worried about that before?


Aminatou: I mean like in a very tiny kind of way, you know? L like not in a . . .

Ann: Aww.

Aminatou: Yeah, I don't know. Not in some dramatic kind of way but in a way where I was like okay, there are fewer things that I can break now than I could break then. [Laughs] So I think for me that has meant okay, this is just a thing that we do. But I also think that in a lot of ways this feels . . . it's still super fun and we're having a blast but in some ways this space feels a lot like work now. There are a ton of people behind-the-scenes who make it including you and me. There's like a higher level of responsibility also, right? And so I think that in that way the place that it occupies in my brain has shifted a little bit.

Ann: I think I had earlier phases of working on this podcast where I had a lot more questions about like the long-term impact of working on this show together and how that would feel for both of us in our friendship. Maybe I've just accepted it. Like it's not that I don't have questions but I accept the questions and the reality.

Aminatou: I think that what's really interesting about it in terms of a collaboration for me at least is that it never feels like . . . because I've had other collaborations that feel this way where I was like every three months I have to have a self-check-in, you know? Where I'm just like where am I at with this? [Laughs] And am I still happy? You know, am I still learning? Am I still doing all these things? And I will say that the self-check-in on CYG is less -- it is way less frequent than that.

And I think that that is truly, for me at least, it's just a testament of okay, we actually enjoy making this thing together. And it's not an oh my god, our relationship is all work now when it used to not be all work. You know what I mean? And so I think that all of that plays a role for me into how I feel about it.

Ann: It's really underscored my belief that friendship is an extremely expansive pair of stretchy pants where it's like you can put a lot down there, you know? [Laughter] You can really fit a lot into the confines of a friendship and remove items and the friendship and retain its shape, right? This experience has taught me that more than anything. And that's a perspective I have because of the years in both our friendship and in the podcast. Do you want to take a little break then take a little walk down our audio memory lane?

Aminatou: Absolutely.



Ann: Okay, we're back and the year is 2014. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Man, that is such a long time ago. Uh . . .

Ann: Miss you Obama era.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Do we?

Ann: Yes we do! Oh my god, do you not?

Aminatou: Listen, listen, I'm yearning for a different kind of era altogether.

Ann: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough my futurist icon.

Aminatou: Ugh, that's where I go when the political depression gets too real. It's not backwards; it's like very forwards to a moment that doesn't exist. But back to 2014, episode 15, our origin story specifically. This is -- I don't think I can listen to any of this without cringing, Ann.

Ann: No way.

Aminatou: Oh my gosh, like what? So this is our first take at the family legend which is really funny because it's very similar to how we tell it now. And also LOL how hard it is to make the show every other week. Remember that? We used to make the show every other week.

Ann: And we were like woo, this is too much. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Yeah. Now we're out here every week, bonus episodes, upside down episodes, inside out episodes. This is wild!

[Clip Starts]


Aminatou: Here's one that I would like you to answer. [Laughs] "How did you start the podcast? Maybe too soon to hit your origin story but I'm interested in learning your process for coming up with show ideas, the podcast to begin with, how did you get sponsors or at least get on iTunes, etc.?"

Ann: Oh my god.

Aminatou: Ann, how did the podcast start?

Ann: I mean I think you and I were like ladies need to be doing podcasts and then we realized we were ladies and should do a podcast. Is that how it came about? [Laughs]

Aminatou: I think . . . I think I remember it a little differently.

Ann: Tell me.

Aminatou: That one Gina Delvac, producer of the show, was like "You ladies should do a podcast."

Ann: Oh yeah, shit.

Aminatou: And we were like what's a podcast? [Laughs]

Ann: I think we had said "Oh yeah, more ladies should do podcasts." And she was like "Cough, cough." Right?

Aminatou: Yes. I think that Gina approached us about this at Desert Ladies but as you know many things happen at Desert Ladies that cloud one's memory and judgment.

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: So I think, yeah, so I think we had had this idea for a long time and we didn't actually . . . we didn't take it seriously for a while because, you know, audio is hard. Then Gina was like "You have to buy these microphones," and we were like what? Like that sounds crazy.

Ann: That's not true, we were excited about the gear.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Speak for yourself. Yeah, I think it took a couple months. And then I specifically remember driving around Hollywood when we were like hey, are we serious about doing this?

Ann: Okay, I do remember this.

Aminatou: Trying to come up with name ideas. And I was very excited when I said Call Your Girlfriend should be the name of the podcast and immediately checked to see that the URL was available, and duh, it was, because people are idiots who sleep on everything.


Ann: Yeah, I was actually driving and you were buying the URL on your phone. I remember.

Aminatou: Yes. We were going to a party at the Ace maybe? LOL.

Ann: I don't know, some sort of shameful like LA stereotypical situation.

Aminatou: I am never ashamed of the time I spend at Ace Hotel establishments.

Ann: I don't think it was though because the Ace wasn't open when we started this.

Aminatou: You're right, it wasn't. It's that one hotel where there's always some lady in pajamas in a glass box.

Ann: The Standard.

Aminatou: And we're like -- all right, The Standard. Thank you.

Ann: The Standard in West Hollywood. We were on our way to The Standard.

Aminatou: Yeah, there's always some bored lady behind a glass like in a chemise and they're like "Look at this great art." And I'm like "Uh, no."

Ann: Yes, you are so right. You are so right. And then we did lots of high-fiving while purchasing or locking down the Gmail and Twitter handles and then we realized we had to do something with them.

Aminatou: I know. So things that are surprising about podcasting, like one, it's hard. It's like actually hard [Laughs] just from setting up your gear and getting your life together. But also coming up with topics every week is . . . it's not like the easiest thing.

Ann: I know, I think about that every time people are like "You should do one every single week." I'm like we can barely get it together to do this every other week.

Aminatou: That's all I've got.

Ann: I mean that seems like a decent place to close out the year.

Aminatou: Are you interested in sponsoring Call Your Girlfriend? Great. Email us at callyrgf@gmail.com and we look forward to hearing from you.

Ann: We will be back in the new year.

Together: See you on the Internet.

Ann: Oh my god, that was at the same time. I can't.

[Clip Ends]


Ann: Okay, so now it's 2015 and speaking of our friendship lore and family legends here's an amazing story that we love to re-tell in our own friendship.

[Clip Starts]

Aminatou: Shout out to all the Thanksgiving warriors.

Ann: Shout out to our Thanksgiving warriors!

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: Do you want to tell the backstory to that amazing catchphrase?

Aminatou: Once upon a time, I believe in 2012, you and I took a road trip to Las Vegas from Los Angeles for Thanksgiving. We thought it would be a great idea. The execution was insane because . . .

Ann: Well I think, yeah, when we planned to do it two days prior it seemed like an awesome idea because of very cheap, nice hotel rooms.

Aminatou: Right? We got an insane, baller room at Ivanka Trump's dad's hotel -- shout out Ivanka Trump. And, yeah, I was like what could go wrong? We're going to drive there on Thanksgiving day. Here's what could go wrong: you can drink and party too much the night before and wake up very just not feeling awesome. Shout out to Molly Lambert whose party we went to the night before. It was just madness.

Ann: Also shout out to you for pouring me into a cab. I don't even remember the end of that party.

Aminatou: I know. I remember you dancing on the couch. There was like an incident with a couch and then, you know, I was like let's go.

Ann: It was a hangover issue.

Aminatou: Yeah, no, it was a hangover issue that was promptly solved by watching a lot of movies the next day. We had planned poorly in that there were no snacks at your house which was like rookie mistake. And then we get on the road very late, like I want to say around 4:00 or 5:00, and assume that we can just roll up to In and Out or something and it's just a regular Thursday.

Ann: California privilege, you just think In and Out is always going to be there for you. It's not.

Aminatou: [Sighs] I'm going to say something controversial in that I don't like In and Out but we can talk about that in another show.

Ann: I'm just saying it would've been really nice while hungover on that Thanksgiving to have some In and Out.

Aminatou: Oh man, anything would've been nice. Long story short, every civilized human in America is sitting at their house so there was no food between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. [Laughs] We had to stop at some weird Albertson's in Rancho Cucamonga. Shout out to that Albertson's.


Ann: Shout out to the hot buffet at that Albertson's which was still open.

Aminatou: I know, which was still open but weirdly empty. So my one memory is eating a disgusting potato salad with no utensils in that parking lot.

Ann: We ate in the car with our hands like animals.

Aminatou: I know. It was really touch-and-go though, but you know, that moment brought us back. But then on the rest of the road trip we listened to this really rocking radio station and the DJ would say every once in a while "Shout out to my Thanksgiving warriors on the road," and that really carried us.

Ann: Which I have to say we did not have the kind of family, relatives, whatever, trying holiday that a lot of people have on Thanksgiving. But it is true, sometimes you've got to be a holiday warrior.

Aminatou: Yeah, no, you know, this was like all our fault.

Ann: Exactly.

Aminatou: But then it was really funny, we got to Vegas and realized we are not Vegas people in that we went to bed really early and the next day we were up too early, did all these activities. People in Vegas don't start doing shit until 11 p.m. and we were like this is not on-brand for us.

Ann: I mean it's so funny, like Vegas always seems like a better idea than it really is.

Aminatou: I know.

Ann: That's how I feel about Vegas.

Aminatou: I just remember Facebook checking-in you into a Toby Keith bar.

Ann: Let me tell you, that has come back to haunt me so many times because I don't check in anywhere on Facebook and so every once in a while Facebook will be like "Check out where your friend Ann has been," and the only place that comes up is Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill in Las Vegas.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: So rude.

Aminatou: It's so funny because it's the only place I ever checked into because I think they had just rolled out that feature and I thought it was hilarious.


Ann: I know. You were like "LOL, I'm going to check you in here," and I was like I hate you right now.

Aminatou: Oh my god, that is ridiculous. But anyway, shout out to all the Thanksgiving warriors who had to endure your crazy family yesterday, to all of you who went home with a significant other and then figured out that their family is crazy too, or just had to argue about politics all day.

Ann: And also shout out to the far more pleasant Friendsgiving warriors which I don't think you even have to be a warrior at all for Friendsgiving, it's just so pleasant.

Aminatou: Yeah, no, I only do Friendsgiving.

Ann: Me too. Hard policy.

[Clip Ends]

Aminatou: Oh man, first recorded use of Ivanka Trump's dad, huh?

Ann: Ivanka's dad, ugh.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Also this Albertson's parking lot story, it's funny because I don't remember us ever telling it on the podcast but of course we did.

Ann: Of course we did.

Aminatou: Of course we did. We've told all our good stories on this show. Okay, next up is . . . I also love what these episodes are called. The previous one was called Thanksgiving Warriors. This one is called Sexy Bellybutton Feeling. [Laughs] Which I'm just like Gina how are you naming these?

[Clip Starts]

Ann: What else?

Aminatou: We received a letter that is very near and dear to me so I'm going to read it.

Ann: Please do.

Aminatou: "Hey ladies. Okay, so I get this weird sensation in my vagina any time somebody touches my belly button."

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: "I've always thought all girls must feel this until I told my boyfriend about it. He thinks this is both hysterical and I'm completely alone on this issue. Tell me I'm not. Thanks so much, Lex Hade." Lex Hade is a wonderful artist and you should check out her paintings. They're unreal. Lex, I don't want to tell you how to live your life but your boyfriend has got to go. He is not a doctor.

Ann: Who is this body-shaming boyfriend who's like "Uh, no. No."

Aminatou: I don't think that he's body-shaming as much as he's not understanding. [Laughs] When I saw this email in my inbox, Ann, I legitimately screamed because I thought that for a moment this woman and I were the only two people that felt this. And then after some reassuring Googling, yes, we are not alone. This is completely normal.


Ann: I mean when you told me about this I Googled sexy bellybutton feeling and received many results so clearly her boyfriend cannot even Google is what I'm saying.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Well, listen, we're not all dating doctors. Understand this. But yeah, don't ever bring a medical issue to him ever again. This is ludicrous.

Ann: But wait, so this happens to you?

Aminatou: But yeah, I was shocked that most people didn't feel this. This happens to me. Not like a casual graze of the bellybutton, but you know . . .

Ann: Like a finger in there?

Aminatou: Yes. [Laughs] It sounds so gross now that I think about it. But yeah, you know . . .

Ann: I feel like, you know, it's one of those things where in the right moment if you're all the way in there because the muscle systems are all . . . once you get below the bellybutton I feel like it all connects to the clit in some way.

Aminatou: In some way, you know? I mean this to me has nothing to do with sexy time. It's just that I'm very diligent about bellybutton cleaning. [Laughs] And, you know, just various bellybutton activities. But it's a thing that I've noticed since I was super young.

Ann: I mean . . .

Aminatou: This is a no-go zone when you're in public.

Ann: I think this is awesome. I'm kind of jealous that I don't experience this outside the context of a sexy moment. I can't just stick my finger in my bellybutton right now and get a nice tickle. I'm sad.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Get a nice tickle is right. Here, what does the Internet say about this?

Ann: Oh my god, careful. Careful with the search terms you use.

Aminatou: "Your bellybutton is one of your erogenous zones so when you do that you're basically kind of tickling it which triggers a kind of weird feeling everywhere and in some cases down there."

Ann: Is this -- WebMD does not say down there. [Laughs]

Aminatou: "Not everyone does it." No, this is not WebMD. This is like TumblrMD. Are you kidding me?

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: But here's the actual smart person. She's like "Although most diagrams of the female sexual organs exclude this detail there is tissue connecting the bellybutton and reproductive organs left over from our days spent in the uterus." Man, who knows? It sounds plausible to me. "Because fetuses receive nutrients from/expel waste through the umbilical cord during development there's a tube that connects our bladder to our bellybutton which doesn't completely disappear after birth." Yeah, Ann, this is called the T-spot.

Ann: What?

Aminatou: The spot between the bladder wall and the vagina.

Ann: Incredible. Wait, so does that mean . . . does that mean it's only because of proximity to the vagina? Or are there some men who get this sensation too?

Aminatou: I don't know. This is only talking about women.

Ann: Amazing. Thank you, Lex.

Aminatou: If you're a man who listens to this podcast who has a T-spot holler at us.

Ann: Careful. We might get some serious email. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I want to know. I always assumed this was everybody. I was like this is why people don't play with their bellybuttons. It's too sexy.

Ann: Whoa. I guess I just thought people didn't play with their belly buttons because most of them are innies.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: Like if there's a body part that hangs off people play with that all the time. But more inward-facing stuff . . .

Aminatou: Oh, interesting.

Ann: That's not a drawn-out theory and in fact I wouldn't even have called it a theory until I just heard it come out of my mouth so . . .

Aminatou: The Ann Friedman theory of bellybuttons. Sold.

Ann: And which dangling body parts we tend to play with.

Aminatou: Ugh. Anyway, this -- learned something new today. Amazing.

Ann: Yeah. Great.

Aminatou: Okay. Well I think that's it for us. We have a little bit of news.

Ann: Oh my god, yeah, and the news is both sad but ultimately happy I feel. Which is . . .

Aminatou: The band is breaking up. Just kidding! [Laughs]

Ann: No, don't even joke about that!

Aminatou: You know that's what people are thinking.

Ann: You're right, they are thinking about that. They're like mommy and mommy are fighting.


Aminatou: Yeah. But instead, no, the band is coming back bigger and better. So to all of our listeners we're going to be taking a little break for a couple of episodes probably through this month and October and we have a ton of really cool stuff that we're working on that we can't really tell you about right now but we will in due time.

Ann: Including tech upgrades so we don't sound like we're talking to you from the bottom of two different wells.

Aminatou: I know. Can't wait to never sit in my closet ever again for this podcast.

Ann: Right. I mean I don't know if we can eliminate the closet completely, but you know, we're going to try.

Aminatou: I'm coming out of the closet for the podcast. I'm over it. 

Ann: Ugh.

[Clip Ends]



Aminatou: The year is 2016. You know, many things happened in 2016 but I will say that I am very, very, very happy to revisit Karen Pence's, a.k.a. Mother, her towel charm business. [Laughs]

Ann: What a scam. What an Etsy scam.

Aminatou: I can't believe I'd forgotten about that. Man, again, simpler times.

[Clip Starts]

Aminatou: Can we talk about Karen Pence though?

Ann: Please.

Aminatou: Our future second lady. [Laughs]

Ann: Stop. Don't even say that. I can't.

Aminatou: Ann, listen. So this article is about Mike Pence and Ivanka's dad and Ivanka's stepmom. So anyway, it's like even their wives are cut from different cloth. Mr. Pence's wife Karen, a former elementary school teacher, sells distinctive towel charms at a company she created called That's My Towel . . . Charm. 

Ann: [Laughs]

Aminatou: Mr. Trump's wife, Melania, a former model who has posed naked, markets a line of gold jewelry and time pieces branded with her name. So Melania is selling legit jewelry and the New York Times fails to recognize that Karen Pence is selling wine charms.

Ann: Yeah. They're $6.25 apiece and promise to help you keep your towel distinct from other beachgoer's towels.

Aminatou: Yeah. Also do you think that really she was like because they're religious they can't sell wine charms so she had to make it into a towel charm?


Ann: [Laughs] I don't know. Actually what do these look like? I'm doing a . . .

Aminatou: Oh my god, I'm looking at them now and I'm dying. There's a baseball glove one. There's a clam towel one. There's a hotdog. Oh my god, I'm getting you the hotdog.

Ann: Oh my god.

Aminatou: Most of us -- here's the thing.

Ann: Ooh, there's pizza.

Aminatou: Oh yeah. Most of us have matching bath and beach towels so it's easy to get them confused. Who is taking . . . [Laughs] getting their beach towel confused with somebody else? Also who is "us" Karen?

Ann: When you go to the website, the That's My Towel Charm website, towelcharm.com, it says "Thanks for your interest in towel charms. The business is currently on hold." Much like your husband's campaign soon will be, fingers crossed.

Aminatou: Oh my god. Ann, these quotes are killing me. "I've had so many times where I was swimming at a friend's beach house, pool, or lake house using their matching, beautiful beach towels. Lo and behold I would go in the water for a dip and up to the house for a beverage and when I came back, my towel, it was gone! Someone else had grabbed my towel unknowingly because all the towels look the same." This is not a problem people have.

Ann: Also they're working so hard to be like we're normal Americans, like we go to Chili's even in New York, then you confess that you hang out at lake houses all the time? Get it together. These are contradictory.

Aminatou: Yo, you know how midwestern people are. They all have that secret money, all of them.

Ann: I mean . . .

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Ann: I'm going to let that one go.

Aminatou: Ugh. All Karen wants is a towel of Karen's own. Just let Karen have it.

[Clip Ends]

Aminatou: We got to talk to some really amazing people in 2016 including Lucy McBath who is now in Congress. But this was one of our very first reported episodes and we talked to listeners who were gun owners and this was a first of its kind Call Your Girlfriend episode.

[Clip Starts]

Lucia: I am Lucy McBath. I'm the mother of Jordan Davis and I'm a national spokesperson for Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America and faith and community outreach leader for Every Town for Gun Safety.

Ann: Maybe you can start by talking about how you got involved with this issue?

Lucia: I got involved in gun violence prevention, which I absolutely had no clue about the gun culture or the gun epidemic, gun violence epidemic, I didn't really have that much of an idea about what was really going on in the country until Trayvon Martin was murdered. And then, you know, Jordan was murdered very shortly thereafter, seven months after. And so I just out of my angst and my anger I wanted to know why the faith community was not standing up and speaking out about morally and ethically what was happening in the country and I wanted to understand a little bit more about the gun culture and the gun laws and how under our existing gun laws people were dying in the streets disproportionately. You know, young males of color.


Ann: And so how do you . . . I mean obviously a lot of people who are going to listen to this have not had a personal experience with gun violence that is so devastating or have not really had it affect someone in their family. How do you talk to people kind of like the folks you were describing who don't seem to think they have a personal stake in this issue and how do you convince them that this is really all of our problem?

Lucia: Well I basically say that if you think that you are immune to gun violence then you're sadly mistaken because I for one thought that we would never be affected by it. We weren't living in a community that was ensconced by gun violence. We never had guns around the house. You know, Jordan was afraid of guns. Jordan was in an environment, a very safe environment, and I thought I'd done all the right things. I homeschooled him and laid a really good grounding in faith for him. You know, we were believers and just doing so-called all the right things. And you think because you believe you're doing all the right things that you are not likely to be a subject of gun violence but that is absolutely not true because our gun culture has become so expansive. Our gun laws have become so loose and ambiguous that people are using their guns anywhere that they want to. People are deciding for themselves to take matters into their own hands. They're shooting first, asking questions later. People are using their guns as a means to silence people that don't look, think, or act like them. You know, people are acting out their implicit biases and racism through gun violence and if you think that you are immune to it, no one is. You know, gun violence has infiltrated the church. Gun violence has infiltrated the LGBTQ community. Gun violence has infiltrated every facet of society. 

Ann: Also when we were planning this episode we recognized that all of us are kind of on the same page about not being into guns and so we sent out a call for listeners to get in touch with us if they were gun owners to talk about why. And I think that this personal safety question, their answers to that were interesting.

Female: My name is Jesse Plevel. I live in quite a small town in northwestern Montana.

Female: My name is Sarah Plamzano.

Female: My name is Alexis Lambert. I live in Florida.

Female: My name's Jess Harrilson. I currently live in Brooklyn, New York but I grew up in Sheridan, Wyoming. And yeah, I grew up around guns. Guns is just part of the culture of Wyoming.

Female: I personally have three guns, but between the guns that I grew up with, my dad and my brothers, oh gosh, probably like 60 or 70?


Female: My experience with guns is I'm a die-in-the-wool liberal, never had any experience with them until I started dating my husband.

Female: I could never see myself using a gun to protect myself from an intruder or something.

Female: But having it there when I'm there alone late at night, you know, there's a little bit more security in that.

Female: Look at it from this way, I'm like a queer woman, and imagine me living out. Like say I move back to Wyoming to not a very populated area out on a ranch and I was living with my wife or my girlfriend, maybe I would probably want to have some guns just for protection.

Female: Like if someone comes into my home with the intent to do me harm I know that I have the resources to protect myself, and my dog. Because if you trifle with my dog I'm going to unshackle you from your mortal coil.

Ann: Way to really be into your pet.

Ann: I know. I'm like we are not aligned on so many issues. [Laughs]

Aminatou: On so many things.

Ann: Oh my god, the pet-loving fanbase is going to come after us so hard.

Aminatou: Oh my god.

[Clip Ends]

Aminatou: I've never gone back to listen to it but the post-election episode hat we did was probably very depressing. Like I'm getting depressed just thinking about the election and also the way we felt about recording after that. So that was also -- that's a 2016 moment for sure.

Ann: Yeah. And like really feeling that, I don't know, it's funny because in retrospect I remember how hard it was to turn on a microphone and try to figure out something of use to say. You know, I also appreciate the fact that we're in some ways still in the mentality that we were in the first day after the election right?

Aminatou: Mm-hmm.


Ann: Like it was the first step of a sustained attitude shift for some of us. And for others, you know, more business as usual with more public recognition of what was going on. So you can fast-forward if you don't want to relive that trauma. [Laughs]

Aminatou: I am fast-forwarding. Here's 2016, boom.

[Clip Starts]

Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.

Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.

Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.

Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.

Aminatou: [Sighs] Big sigh.

[Theme Song]

Aminatou: You know, also the other silver lining for all of this is just hearing from all of the women in our lives who are just . . .

Ann: Oh, so true.

Aminatou: As dedicated and invested as we are in just being free. That was really awesome. The women I like to call my personal board of directors, one of them emailed this morning. She was like "Well, everything has gone to shit but guess what? We are still going to get paid." And it was this excertation about knowing your value and knowing your worth and just fighting is hell so all women get paid. And I was like yeah, because now I've got ACLU bills coming in. [Laughs]

Ann: Now I've committed to a monthly donation and this happened.

Aminatou: You know, it's like all of my little liberty and equality children. Got to feed everyone. But I love that. I love that that was her thought this morning. She was like "Hi? Hello? Women freelancers, how are we going to get paid this week?" And I was just like I love that. I was like yes, our lady web is strong.

Ann: It's true. And I don't know, I think relying on your personal lady web and the flood of text messages and the phone calls, that is also a nice silver lining. Like that reflection of the people who care about you and want to support you no matter what kind of despotic regime has just been elected.

Aminatou: [Sighs] We're sad, we're angry, but we're not going to stop. So that's the only good thing for me that's going to come out of this.

Ann: That's the headline: sad, angry, not going to stop.


Aminatou: Not going to stop. If this means a re-dedication to being braver and speaking out more and just going out on a limb and being there for your friends and your neighbors, hell yeah. I'm there.

Ann: Yeah. And doing stuff that aligns with your beliefs but probably makes you a little uncomfortable or maybe feels like "Oh, is this too far?" I think this is the moment for stuff like that.

[Clip Ends]

Ann: Okay, 2017. I feel like this is the year that we kind of started to come into our own with a few bigger interviews. I mean obviously we've been interviewing people since day one but really starting to get some higher-stakes conversations and I think both of us have gotten a lot better on this front. Like that's one nice thing about having a retrospective moment is like okay, here is where you can hear us start to be pros in our own way.

[Clip Starts]

Aminatou: This is not about the book but it's about a book. We read that you were really into the Ferrante books while you were taking some time off.

Hillary: Yes.

Aminatou: So we were wondering who is your Lila?

Hillary: Probably my oldest friend. We became best friends in sixth grade. Her name is Betsy. And she and I have been through all of the ups and downs of our lives together and she's smart and loving and supportive and never thrown my doll into a grate. I mean she's really terrific.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Hillary: So probably -- I have great friends. I'm blessed by really good girlfriends. But she's the one that goes the farthest back and is still so much a part of my life.

Aminatou: You write really beautifully about the women in your life in this book, about your daughter, about your mother, and a lot of friends. Is that something that was really front-of-mind for you when you were writing the book?


Hillary: Well it was, Amina, for a couple of reasons. You know, I wanted the book to be both personal and political because I know that for a lot of people this election was traumatic and it needed to be a story about resilience, not just mine but others, as well as what happened with all of the forces that were at work.

My girlfriends were by my side through this whole campaign. They were giving me good advice. They would be meeting up with me on the campaign trail. They'd be just a constant presence. And after I lost they rallied around and they know me as the pushy friend. You know, I write in the book how I'm always giving unsolicited advice about everything and my friends' eyes roll, but they became the pushy friends and they would call and say "I'm coming to see you whether you want to see me or not," or "I'm taking you to the theatre whether you want to go or not. I'm sending you books that I think you should read and you'd better." I mean it was so great. So my friends really provided so much support in the wake of what was a devastating and shocking defeat and still are. 

[Clip Ends]

Ann: Yeah. We talked to Margaret Atwood about dystopia.

[Clip Starts]

Ann: Thank you so much for being here.

Margaret: Well hello to you.

Ann: [Laughs] All right.

Margaret: Do it again.

Ann: Okay, perfect.

Margaret: You're not going to use that, you naughty girl.

Female: Which part? The last?

Margaret: When I made fun of her.

Ann: Yep.

Female: All right. Say hello one more time.

Margaret: Hello!

Ann: [Laughs] How many takes of hello can we do?

Female: It's going to be a great montage.

Ann: Goodbye!

Margaret: [Laughs] This -- it's audio, not video?

Female: Correct.

Ann: It's audio. We have faces for radio.

Margaret: Okay, so what are you going to do with it?


Ann: We're going to put it on our podcast.

Margaret: Podcast? Okay. All right.

Ann: Which is called Call Your Girlfriend.

Margaret: [Laughs] About what?

Ann: Well, the premise is a conversation between two long-distance friends.

Margaret: Okay.

Ann: It's me and my friend who lives in New York. So often the episodes are us catching up but this episode will also feature you.

Margaret: Okay.

Ann: It's a special episode about . . .

Margaret: So you're going to say "I'm talking to Margaret Atwood," and your girlfriend in New York is going to say "Oh my god, I'm so jealous." [Laughs]

Ann: Precisely that. Exactly that. She got to interview Hillary Clinton without me. The theme of this episode . . .

Margaret: But she's more famous.

Ann: I mean is she though? [Laughs] What are your thoughts on Hillary? Are you a Hillary fan?

Margaret: I think Hillary got really bombarded with 17th century witch imagery during the election. I mean the misogyny was extraordinary.

Ann: Right.

Margaret: I mean I'm not an American so I don't get to vote in those elections but of course we watch everything you do with great interesting and that was very, very strange.

Ann: Were you surprised? It was strange to you?

Margaret: Was I surprised by the result? Wasn't everyone?

Ann: No, by the framing of her, that 17th century witch.

Margaret: I was surprised that it was so overt. Like usually the misogyny is more concealed. This was right out, splat in your face.

Ann: Right.

Margaret: So everything got a lot more overt during that election than usually it is.

Ann: I feel like that's a great intro into . . . I mean a lot of your work has misogyny that's splat out in your face as you put it.

Margaret: Not quite. Well yeah, yeah, it does, sure, but not the real life stuff. So the realistic novels, the misogyny is more covert although often quite extreme but not so public.

Ann: That's true. I mean I think the female characters in your books especially deal with the full range of terrible things.

Margaret: They deal with the full range of micro aggression to macro aggression.

Ann: Right.

[Clip Ends]

[Clip Starts]


Ellen: I'm Ellen Pao. I am the cofounder and CEO of a non-profit called Project Include and I'm also the chief diversity and inclusion officer at the Kapor Center and a venture partner at Kapor Capital.

Aminatou: And now you're an author as well.

Ellen: I know. It's exciting.


Aminatou: When I was reading the book, and specifically one of the excerpts that was in that ran in New York Magazine also, I remember just being so shocked at some of the examples that you gave where, you know . . . I think that sometimes when you're a woman at work, you're just like oh, did that person do -- is that thing because I'm a woman? And if you're a woman of color, you're definitely like ugh, am I being paranoid? What's going on? But some of the examples that you gave are like classic textbook 1950s, you know, if you had to draw what discrimination was or sexual harassment at work, you cannot get clearer than that. Why do you think it's taken people, especially in technology, so long to realize that that goes on in our field?

Ellen: That's a really good question. I think -- you know, I try to look back at myself. I didn't really think about it until I had been in it for several years. And it's partly because you do want to believe it's a meritocracy. You do want to believe that everybody's being treated fairly, and you go through the system and you see these problems and you think maybe it's just that one person. Maybe it's just this one day. And it's small and it's not every single thing every single day because you're doing things outside with other people or you're writing your own investment memo or you're meeting with entrepreneurs. It's not until you really lift your head up.

And for most people when you're struggling you've got your head down and you're really trying to get through task-by-task and it's not . . . you don't have the time or the energy to kind of pull up and put all the pieces together and connect all the dots to figure out wow, this is really much bigger than I am and this is really a huge problem. Because also you can't do anything about it, right? So that's a little bit demoralizing to pull up and see wow, this is a huge problem. I'm never going to get promoted. None of the women in my team are going to get promoted. We're never going to hire a black person. We're never going to hire a Latinx person. That's completely demoralizing. So at least for me I put some blinders on and I kind of hid from it until I couldn't.

[Clip Ends]


Aminatou: Yeah. And, you know, we also continued doing some hyper-focused kind of reported episodes. I cannot believe that the pelvic power episode is from 2017. I don't know in my mind where it fits but that both feels a long time and so close. And I think this is also the year that we really -- like our editorial really became something we all started caring about, not just you. [Laughs] And so I think of 2017 really as the year where we're like okay, we figured out how to use these microphones; how do we actually make a thing that makes sense every week?

[Clip Starts]

Ann: On to the long-awaited pelvic health episode. I'm so excited about this. How are you feeling?

Aminatou: You know, my pelvis feels amazing so I feel great. [Laughs]

Ann: Maybe we should go back because I was just asking you about this. I almost forgot about the original inspiration that made us want to do this episode which was each of us having some bad experiences with the gynecologists/doctors who were looking at our pelvic region.

Aminatou: Yeah. So a couple of months back I think that we both got really vulnerable about bad gyno experiences. Yours was hyper specific and mine was very much like I cry every time, it's the worst, but also my new feminist doctor was like scoot your butt all the way to the end and that was revolutionary for me. [Laughs]

Ann: [Laughs] Butt scooch revolution?

Aminatou: Oh yeah, it sounds so . . . it almost sounds really funny because the gyno is one doctor that if you are a woman or somebody who identifies as a woman you will go to at least once and there is nothing pleasant about it. And unfortunately for health reasons you'll probably go to it a lot, and so a lot being at least once a year. Hot tip, when you make your gynecologist your primary care physician it's very exciting.

Ann: So yeah, so after we talked about these bad experiences we got so many emails both from people who had also had bad experiences with their gynecologists but also from some people offering information and resources. And so we've long been plotting an episode where we talk to actual experts, not just Google, M.D.s like us, about what's up with pelvises. Pelvic health. [Laughs]

Aminatou: And let me tell you first of all we have so many pelvic sheroes in the CYG community it's kind of baffling.

Ann: I know you can't see me but this is my not surprised face but also I'm super proud because this is the best community. [Laughs]

Aminatou: It is the best community. And also it's really fascinating because I think this is what I've learned from it, right? It's that for a long time on this show I have complained in some form or fashion about pelvic exams and how much I hate them or about my cramping in general. You know, about all of the everything is unpleasant down there and it's not cool. And every time I would do that at least one or two people, one of our listeners, would email and say "Hey, have you talked to your doctor about pelvic health?" [Laughs] And it's like a real-time reminder that oh, this is what friends do. When you complain about pain in your body they're like, you know, not trying to diagnose you like Amina is crazy but they're just like oh, this sounds like a thing that we talk about all the time. And so it was such a real-time reminder for me that this is one of the added benefits of friendship and also of the fact that women make themselves emotionally vulnerable is there's a world in which somebody is listening to what your situation is and might even have solutions for you.


Ann: Totally, and also provides the reality check that hey, actually maybe you don't just need to grit your teeth and put up with a really unpleasant medical experience. Maybe there's a better way or maybe there are more resources for you. Like I have relied on friends so many times to remind me of that, so yeah, shout out to our extended friends.

Aminatou: Totally. [Laughs]

Ann: Who else said that? Yeah.

Aminatou: The real lesson here -- you're right -- is if you are in pain about anything, that is not a normal state of being and there's a different state of being that you can be in.

Ann: Right.

Aminatou: And so a couple of months ago, also when we both talked about the importance of having progressive, holistic OBGYNs, there's hella nurses in this family and people emailed and one of the common refrains that I heard was if you want a doctor who is progressive, feminist, and probably into some holistic stuff you should consider seeing a midwife. And I was like what? I thought midwives were for people who were imminently having children. Like if I was honest I didn't know the difference between a midwife and a doula. I thought a doula was a hipster midwife. [Laughs] And so, you know, tomato, to-ma-to. It's the same thing. But it turns out that actually midwifery is really fucking badass and you don't have to be pregnant to go see a midwife and they're very respectful of taking your entire situation into hand when you go see them.

[Clip Ends]


Ann: Okay, on to last year, 2018.

Aminatou: Oh my god, 2018.

Ann: I feel like 2018 is the year we really doubled down on our scam content. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Scammers, they're just like us. [Laughs]

[Clip Starts]

Ann: Oh my god, so the related story last week which was about this guy from Colombia who convinced a bunch of rich people in Miami he was a Saudi royal . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: The details in that article which is in the Washington Post were also incredible. It includes the fact that the door buzzer on his apartment unit said Sultan.

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: And the fact that he had purchased diplomatic plates for his Ferrari from eBay. And it's just like . . .

Aminatou: Right. Like another thing I didn't even know you could do, right? Like it has never occurred to me to go to eBay and go like diplomatic plates.

Ann: Totally. So yeah, blah, blah, blah, defrauding investors, it's fine. But also some of his lies that are leading up to the lie that he was a Saudi royal are pretty amazing including him telling his classmates that his family owned a local resort or that he was "the son of actor Dom DeLuise."

Aminatou: [Laughs] In this specific category at least do you think that a lot of these people -- like this is a category that a lot of us could fall into in the sense that we've all had a fantasy life, you know?

Ann: Yes.

Aminatou: And some of these people just take it too far. It's like I'm happy to just fantasize. I'm not actually willing to do the work. It just seems like a lot of work.

Ann: Okay. But if you were going to create a fake royal scam persona where would you be from? What would your story be?


Aminatou: I don't know. I think in order for this to be successful you need to look the part. The Saudi guy, I kind of commend him because I was like you're doing good. But I'm also like I would be afraid to lie about being Saudi royalty. That's too . . . I feel like it's too fraught. I would go some very tiny obscure country or I like -- I don't know. But also my fantasy is not to be a princess so this would not work for me.

Ann: Okay, but this fake Saudi prince "purchased the entire first class cabin so he could be alone on a flight." Like that is . . .

Aminatou: [Laughs]

Ann: I'm sorry but if you had scam kind of money that is 100% something you would do with your money.

Aminatou: No Ann, if I had scam money I would have a private plane! If somebody has all of the money to purchase first class in an airplane it's like why don't they have access to their own plane? Those are the alarm bells that should be going off for you.

Ann: In summary, fake royals category. Tagline "My money is all tied up in investments right now." Hallmarks of a fake royal include confusing backstory, several aliases, cash payments, all the best parties, and I would add maybe some eBay license plates. [Laughs]

Aminatou: Oh my god.

Ann: And the natural habitat is the lobby of a five-star hotel.

[Clip Ends]

Ann: Also the year where Gina made her hosting debut with her Bi Bi Bi episode which honestly a fan super favorite. Like when we ask people about episodes they love people mention this episode so many times, like Gina's perfect voice, Gina's perfect editorial sensibility. I also love that episode.

[Clip Starts]

Gina: So thanks for sticking with me on this journey into the many multiple experiences of bisexual people. My next guest is writer Catie Disabato. It's always good to talk to a literary-minded open friend about their life experience and I think it's so interesting like money when you're talking about sex you're really talking about emotions and values.

Catie: Yeah.


Gina: And our sense of selves and how we express ourselves and around whom and how much, right? That it feels like even though I thought oh, we're going to have this kind of smutty conversation now we're talking about feelings. 

Catie: Yeah. [Laughs]

Gina: We're talking about personal stories and life experience because that's how this stuff all gets wrapped up.

Catie: One thing that's like -- I think that the kids are doing that is kind of on the smut side, just to put a little excitement in it.

Gina: Oh yeah?

Catie: Is I think that when we were coming up there was a real kind of condescension towards the idea of sexual experimentation, right?

Gina: Say more.

Catie: Women were considered either foolish for sexual experimenting or it was like for the male gaze to experiment with women.

Gina: The I kissed a girl and I liked it version of queerness?

Catie: Totally, yeah. The kissing somebody at a party. Having it be a public thing rather than something that's developing one-on-one between people. And I also think a lot of lesbians of our generation were pretty anti- the idea of experimentation because, you know, people can get hurt when you experiment. Two women who think that they maybe want to have sex with each other then one of them is actually like I love our friendship but I'm not sexually interested in women and I discovered that by trying to have sex with you, I mean that sucks.

Gina: Huge ego blow.

Catie: The moral of the story is experimentation is mean and bad, but that's how you figure out who you want to fuck and you have to experiment. And I feel like kids these days are experimenting more then that gets wrapped up in the way we talk about sex in the country in general which is it should be normal and chill and cool for teenagers to be sexually experimenting with each other. It should be normal and chill and cool if a teenager doesn't want to. But if you want to you should and it should just feel open and we should try to create a culture where we're like if you are 16 and you feel like you want to fuck you should fuck.

Gina: As long as you're not exploiting anyone else in the process or compromising yourself, right?


Catie: Yeah. And understanding that you may hurt people emotionally which is different than exploiting people, you know? If you genuinely think that you might want to have sex with somebody and you realize you don't and you hurt that person, like that sucks ass but it's fine. Like that's normal and fine. But if you mis-characterize yourself in order to gain access to somebody sexually that's un-chill. That's not fine.

Gina: Highly un-chill. Highly un-chill.

[Clip Ends]

Aminatou: Over the last couple of years it's been really -- even though you and I do this show in the confines of our closets, our respective closets, it's been really, really, really cool 1) to go out on the road and meet the CYG community but also to see all of the good that CYG does together. We raised many, many dollars for Zana Africa. We had the Bleeding for Amina blood drive.

Ann: Hey!

Aminatou: I know! We had, god, what was that? We've had various really cool tabling partners at our live shows. One of my favorites were the women in D.C. who collected all those -- the menstrual stuff. I just love that any time that we get together there's always an opportunity to do something good and someone in the community always steps up.

Ann: It's true. Love our listener community. Everyone is the best. And whew, five years. Congratulations. Looks like we made it.

Aminatou: [Laughs] Look how far we've come my baby!

Ann: I mean . . .

Aminatou: Thank you Shania. Yeah! And special shout-out to Gina also who is definitely, definitely, definitely a very, very real reason that this happens every week so . . .

Ann: Our forever fav. The glue. The glue of CYG.

Aminatou: The glue that holds the family together.

Ann: All right, I'll see you on the Internet boo-boo.

Aminatou: I'll see you on the Internet, boo-boo.


Ann: All right, you can find us many places on the Internet: on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, iTunes where it would be awesome if you left us a review. You can also tweet at us at @callyrgf or email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. And you can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. This podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.

Aminatou: Gina!

Ann: Gina. [Laughter] 

Aminatou: See you on the Internet, boo!

Ann: See you on the Internet.