The Wind in Your Hair
5/11/18 - With so much attention on Iran this week, we look at daily life for women. Iranian journalist Masih Alinejad joins us to discuss her campaign against compulsory hijab. Plus, how Western feminists and politicians can be better allies to women in Iran. Masih's soon-to-be-released memoir is The Wind in My Hair.
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CREDITS
Producer: Gina Delvac
Hosts: Aminatou Sow & Ann Friedman
Theme song: Call Your Girlfriend by Robyn
Composer: Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs
Visual Creative Director: Kenesha Sneed
Merch Director: Caroline Knowles
Editorial Assistant: Laura Bertocci
Ad sales: Midroll
LINKS
The Wind in My Hair: My Fight for Freedom in Modern Iran by Masih Alinejad
My Stealthy Freedom campaign
TRANSCRIPT: THE WIND IN YOUR HAIR
[Ads]
(1:14)
Aminatou: Welcome to Call Your Girlfriend.
Ann: A podcast for long-distance besties everywhere.
Aminatou: I'm Aminatou Sow.
Ann: And I'm Ann Friedman.
Aminatou: On this week's agenda there's a lot of news about the Iran nuclear deal but we want to know more about what daily life is like for women in Iran. Ann speaks to author Masih Alinejad on what western feminists get wrong in her upcoming book The Wind in My Hair.
[Theme Song]
(2:02)
Aminatou: Hey girl.
Ann: Hey. How's it going?
Aminatou: You know, it's going. [Laughs]
Ann: The most dismissive and yet accurate two-word answer to that question.
Aminatou: It's going.
Ann: Well, okay, I have a stimulating treat for you today.
Aminatou: I'm so excited. What's going on?
Ann: I interviewed the Iranian journalist and writer Masih Alinejad who . . .
Aminatou: Oh, awesome.
Ann: Yeah, who is at the forefront of the campaign against the compulsory hijab in Iran specifically but who has really started and amplified a lot of the social media efforts among women in Iran to document themselves with a hijab and moving through the world and the kinds of things that people say to them. And in some cases more in an overt protest way. She's written a book now that is kind of part autobiography and part about this issue that she feels so strongly about.
Aminatou: I can't wait to hear about it.
Ann: And I do want to say too that she mentions on this issue specifically a couple of activists and thinkers and people who I really respect and love and has a really different perspective on them through the lens of this one issue that she cares about so deeply. And so I think that's always interesting too, right? Like the sense of if we agree on one big important thing like women's rights or human rights then we're maybe going to agree on all these other little striations underneath that and the ways that that's enacted. And sometimes the truth is you can be really similar to someone politically, demographically, and aligned on the broader goal while at the same time maybe not being on the same page about things that fall underneath that. And so that's something that this conversation sparked for me that I think is both difficult and necessary at the same time.
(4:00)
Aminatou: Yeah. You know I'm really curious to hear about it from the perspective of someone who grew up in a conservative Muslim home because I've been really heartened to see a lot of conversation about the hijab in the context of feminism and in the context of personal choices that women make. But also, you know, in the context of political oppression really. And a lot of people feel very differently about this. Like some people think well, you know, if you choose to wear it's your choice. But in some countries you don't choose to wear it. And so I'm really curious to hear from somebody who is an activist and just really in tune to that sensitivity about it. Can't wait.
Ann: Yeah. So she gets into those details and we should say -- and she'll reiterate this too -- that the campaign is against compulsory hijab. And so if someone is wanting to wear it and feeling great that's 100% fine. It's more about, yeah, the kind of social, political, and actually enforced compulsion to do so that's at the heart of this conversation.
[Interview Starts]
Masih: My name is Masih Alinejad. I'm an Iranian journalist and a campaigner against compulsory hijab.
Ann: Amazing. Masih thank you for being on the podcast today.
Masih: Thank you for having me.
Ann: So your memoir is called The Wind in My Hair and I'm wondering if you can start by talking about what that title means to you or why you chose that for the book?
Masih: The Wind in My Hair. I think many Iranian women, they understand when I talk about the wind in my hair, how it feels and how it means. From the age of seven you have to cover your hair, from the day you start going to school. And in public when you don't see the police around you can, you know, take off your head scarf in stealth, in secret, when you don't see any morality police around. And this is the moment that you feel the wind through your hair which I call it guilty pleasure. It's an amazing feeling. So for me it's not just about the wind; it's about my personal freedom. It's about happiness. It's about my identity. It's about, you know, the philosophy behind compulsory hijab when I talk about the wind in my hair. It's about saying no to men, to the law telling us that women -- how to behave and what to wear and how. You know, what kind of lifestyle to choose and live inside Iran.
(6:38)
Ann: So for our listeners who are not familiar maybe you can talk a bit about how My Stealthy Freedom began, the origins of that.
Masih: You know I was a parliamentary journalist when I was in Iran and my main focus was on human rights and political freedom. You know, freedom of speech. And when I left Iran in 2009 I was just covering the story of those protesters inside Iran who got killed. So I interviewed the families of 57 people who got shot and killed and tortured to death in prison but one day I just felt my heart was broken. I needed something else. I needed to think about my own self as well. So I just went out and I took a picture of myself in a beautiful street in London when I was running and feeling the wind in my hair, so I just published that picture on my Facebook page with this caption: Any time when I run in a beautiful street or when I feel the wind in my hair in a free country it just reminds me of the time when my hair was like a hostage in the hands of the Iranian government. And I was receiving a lot of comments from Iranian women envying my freedom from compulsory hijab. Soon after I found another picture of myself which was taken inside Iran being unveiled driving down a road towards my hometown. And I published that with another caption, "I know there are many of you, the women in Iran, who know how to bypass the authority and create stealthy freedom. If you have to send pictures would you want to share it with me?" I was bombarded by pictures from Iranian women. You know, so many beautiful pictures of themselves sending to me saying that "This is my true self." They were all unveiled.
(8:38)
And at that time I just felt that these women wanted to talk about personal freedom. Yes freedom of speech is important, political freedom is important, but we have to talk about personal freedom as well. We have to talk about compulsory hijab because it's not a piece of cloth. It's about human rights. It's about our dignity. That is why I started to launch a campaign on my Facebook page and I created a page called My Stealthy Freedom and I invited women to share their photos and videos in talking about their personal freedom, talking about compulsory hijab. Because I strongly believe freedom is freedom. Stealthy freedom cannot scare any government but when you talk about it loud then it can scare the government and it can empower the women to express themselves.
Ann: Yeah. So it sort of morphed, right, from My Stealthy Freedom to White Wednesdays to Girls of Revolution Street, is that right? In terms of how you talk about this campaign.
(9:40)
Masih: Yes, that's true, because for a full decade we never had the chance to be heard. But after My Stealthy Freedom we managed to make the president of Iran to hear us because when our president went to France there were two journalists taking a picture from the My Stealthy Freedom campaign and confronted the president of Iran with a picture and asking about compulsory hijab. And all the Friday prayers inside Iran. All the media outside Iran, they were talking about our campaign and Iranian women who do not want to wear compulsory hijab. And I thought now we have to shift the online movement to something offline, something public.
That is why I picked a day, Wednesday, and I picked a color, white, because in my opinion white is the color of peace. So I invited people to take to the streets and if they want they can wear a white symbol or they can take off the headscarf. Again I didn't really expect that men and those women who believe in hijab can join those women who do not want compulsory hijab in sending videos to me. I was bombarded by so many videos from brave women walking in public and showing their face and talking loud and powerful and sending the message to the government of Iran saying that we -- the women of Iran -- had the fear inside us for more than 30 years, for almost four decades. And now we are not scared of you and we want to be heard.
And that is how the White Wednesday campaign started but now it's gaining momentum in Iran. Everyone's talking about it and women are fearless and full of hope. The women are like -- they're out of control right now.
Ann: I have been so inspired, especially because so many of the photos and videos that they're posting are from their perspective and often they're capturing what people are saying to them, the responses that they're getting in public. And often as you say it's not pleasant. I am in constant awe of the way these women are unafraid to continue being in public the way they want to be given the kinds of things people are saying to them that they're documenting.
(12:05)
Masih: Exactly. You know what? I remember once when I was in London there was a guy who stopped me and he was a pro-government supporter. He was supporting the government of Iran. He was Iranian. He stopped me in the airport in London and he was naming me and shaming me and calling me ugly. He was telling me "You ugly woman ruining the image of Iran by talking about compulsory hijab. You don't care about the reputation of our country. You're betraying our country. You're so ugly and disgusting." He broke my heart. Of course I got really scared and then I just ran after him and I said "Hey, you called me ugly. Can you tell what you said on my camera?" Then he got scared and said "No, I was just saying like . . ." So he changed his mind and I said yes, I won because now you're scared of my camera. That is why I just published the story I filmed myself. I published a story on my Instagram and I said "Look, my camera, my mobile is my weapon." So you can use it in front of anyone who harassed you, who bothered you, who interfered in your personal freedom in the street and just send the film to me. And then it was just all about our personal life.
And then again I received a lot of videos from men and women saying yes, this mobile phone is like a weapon. Because the government of Iran, they have guns and bullets. They have money, power, prison. They have all the national TVs and media. But all we have is just a mobile phone and camera and we expose their violence by filming them and capturing those people who are attacking us and saying what to wear, how to behave, and what type of lifestyle we should follow. We have been facing the morality police for years and years but now thanks to social media giving the people of Iran the power to break the censorship, to open the eyes of the rest of the world towards the true face of Iran, the face of Iran which has been hidden for 40 years . . .
(14:25)
You know, when you turn on the TV in Iran all you see is just women in hijab. But the true Iran is not like that. The true Iran is like my family. You know, my mom, my sister, they wear hijab but I don't want to wear hijab. So Iran should be for both of us, for all of us, not just for those people who want to wear hijab. And I think now people of Iran using social media and presenting the true Iran to the rest of the world . . .
Ann: Yeah. And I have to imagine sometimes people get confused by the difference between opposing compulsory hijab and opposing hijab. Because as you say there's a difference there right?
Masih: Yes.
Ann: Like you are fine with people -- women dressing however they want to dress. Is that correct?
Masih: Yeah. I think those people who get confused, I think they don't get confused. They don't want to hear us. They -- let me be honest with you. Certainly in America. You know why? Because I'm being so clear I say that loud many times and I invited all the Muslim community to join me, all the western feminists to join me, all the western female politicians to join me. And I was so loud telling them that I am not against hijab. I am against compulsory hijab. And compulsory hijab is not part of our culture. And I invited all these feminists around the world that when you go to Iran do not obey compulsory hijab without thinking about those women who are putting themselves in danger to condemn compulsory hijab, to fight against compulsory hijab. So these female politicians and the feminists in the west, they know what we are fighting against but they don't want to talk about it because they think that if we talk about compulsory hijab then we might cause Islamophobia. But this is wrong because we are not causing Islamophobia. These sharia laws and compulsory hijab laws itself are causing Islamophobia.
(16:35)
So I am not against Islam but all the Islamic laws are against me and the women in Iran. So we are fighting against restrictions and we are fighting against these sharia laws. So if you condemn the compulsory hijab laws or any oppression which is happening in Islamic countries that doesn't make you Islamophobic. And second they think this is a law. You know, a law should be respected and the western female politicians who come to my country, they cannot break the law. You know, it is ridiculous because the burqini ban was a law as well. It used to be legal as well. You cannot say because it's a law we have to respect the law. That law should be challenged to make it a respectable law.
And another reason -- third reason -- they think this is a small issue and the Middle East has got so many bigger problems. That is why they don't want to talk about this small piece of cloth. But if it's a small issue have you ever thought about it that you will be kicked out? It doesn't matter if you're Angela Merkel or you are the first lady of the United States of America or you're a high representative of the European Union. If you just do not wear the compulsory hijab, a small piece of cloth, you will be kicked out from the airport in Iran. So how you can say this is a small issue when within a year 3.6 million people were warned, stopped, and sent to the court just for having a bad hijab, an inappropriate hijab? This is not a small issue when the government of Iran does not let you get an education, get a job, to live in your own country if you don't wear this small piece of cloth. This is about our dignity and identity.
(18:28)
And another thing that the female politicians and western feminists do not want to talk about, it's because they think this is an internal matter. This is totally wrong because the government of Iran is forcing all non-Iranian, all the tourists and western female politicians, to wear hijab. As far as the government of Iran forcing all non-Iranians, non-Muslim women to wear hijab, it's a global issue. It's about you. So that is why we do not invite the western feminists to come and say us. Actually we want to save them and make them understand that this is a discriminatory law and if you're a true feminist you have to join us and keep the sisterhood and be our voice and stand up for your own dignity.
[Ads]
(22:18)
Ann: I'm curious about your message. Definitely not all of our listeners are in America but I would wager a good percentage of them are feminist-identified women who live in the United States. Other than talking about this issue and amplifying what we see on social media happening in terms of White Wednesdays and Girls of Revolution Street what do you want to see from women in my position or women in the US who call themselves feminists?
Masih: Just do not ignore your sisters and do not legitimize compulsory hijab by saying that this is not our issue. It is your issue. It is about you. Like when the burqini ban happened in France what was your reaction? You know we -- all women around the world -- we were loud and we banned the burqini ban. We wanted to stand up with the women in France. But why? I don't understand why when it happens in Iran, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, I see a lot of female politicians or as you said the tourists or people like you when you travel to Iran you have to think about it. At least just ask a question. This is really important.
You know, I see Dolce & Gabbana here, H&M, Nike, they're all supporting my Muslim sisters in the United States of America by promoting hijab which is important. They care about the Muslim minority which is beautiful. But when you keep totally silent about the other side, that this piece of cloth -- hijab -- can be the most visible symbol of oppression, then you are actually empowering the Islamic Republic of Iran to put more pressure on women. Let me tell you how. The government of Iran when they see that and all the western feminists supporting hijab without even saying a single statement against compulsory hijab, or when the government of Iran sees that the high representative of the European Union or the female politicians are going to Iran and obeying compulsory hijab without challenging that, they're using that in different ways on Iranian state TV, in the parliament.
(24:35)
I myself interviewed [0:24:36] and he said the same. He said "Look, even the high representative of the European Union is respecting our culture. Who are you daring to challenge our culture?"
Ann: Wow.
Masih: That's why -- yeah, you see? That's why men women -- there are many girls of Revolution Street who went on a platform putting their headscarf on a stick, waving that in public, and they were pushed down from the platform. They were beaten up in prison. So they paid the price. Why? Because they wanted to make an awareness for people like you or other feminists in the west to understand that when we fight against a discriminatory law do not legitimize that law.
You know I had a debate with Linda Sarsour on CNN and then she was actually saying that I am supporting my sister in Iran. I'm supporting the fight in Iran. I'm wearing a hijab. That doesn't mean I'm supporting compulsory hijab. I am of course supporting my sisters in Iran. But be honest with me: when I go to your social media there is no way that you can find you have been supporting your sisters in Iran who were beaten up, who were pushed down from the platform, and who are still in prison just for testing against compulsory hijab. I am saying that just talk about it loud. Just say it. Say that loud and be the voice of those women inside Iran who are putting themselves in danger to fight compulsory hijab.
(26:20)
If you're supporting the women of Iran that doesn't make you look Islamophobic, you know? That makes you actually look like a true feminist because the women of Iran, now they don't have any voice inside Iran and they're brave and strong. And by ignoring them honestly you're just empowering the government of Iran to put pressure on us.
Ann: So I think . . .
Masih: I don't mean to be cruel but . . .
Ann: No, it's not cruel at all. It's real.
Masih: I don't want to be cruel but it's really true that those western female politicians who go to my country and the same day that there was a [0:27:09] revolution called [0:27:10], they were beaten up and arrested just because of waving her head scarf, on the same day there was the female politician from the Netherlands meeting the president of Iran and they all wore hijab without asking a single question. That breaks our heart. You know why? Because you are actually empowering the government of Iran but you're calling yourselves feminists.
The minister of Sweden published a picture of herself with a hat and she said -- actually she wrote on her Facebook "Wearing a hijab is like wearing a hat." How come you can be so cruel calling compulsory hijab like a hat? And actually I wrote to her that "Have you ever been beaten up just because of wearing a hat in Sweden?" "No." "Have you ever been kicked out from a school just because of wearing a hat in your country? You have to be loud if you're a true feminist."
(28:10)
Ann: Well and I feel in that example -- it's a perfect example because I do feel a lot of times that women and women politicians in the west are trying . . . are being responsive to Islamophobic elements in their own societies at home and are not thinking about a global audience, like an audience of women within Iran when they do things like that. They're only thinking about sending a specific signal to let's be honest Islamophobic probably white men in their home countries. Like they're not thinking about a big audience for this issue or the bigger meaning. And I think that's a triumph of anti-Islam hate groups frankly. It has this multiplying effect.
Masih: From the age of seven I remember because I grew up in a poor family I kept hearing "Shh, this is not the right time because we are poor and we have to think about the bread and money." And then we had war in our country and still when we wanted to talk about women's rights people were saying "Shh, this is not the right time because of war." And then we had sanctions. We had revolution. Every time when we wanted to talk about women's rights there were people saying "Shh, this is not the right time." Now we don't have war. We don't have sanction. But now in America they say "Shh, you have to keep quiet. It's not the right time to talk about compulsory hijab because of Islamophobia." So you see? For years and years and years there are some reasons to keep silent. That is why I want to say that. But in my opinion any time that you feel you're being oppressed do not victimize yourself. Just be loud and talk about women's rights.
(30:00)
So I don't care if people are saying that because of Islamophobia, because of this, because of that . . . I want to talk about my personal freedom, especially about compulsory hijab, because when the government of Iran does not let you control your head and what you're putting on your head then they're not going to let you control what's going on inside your head. They're going to control your thoughts and opinions and ideas as well. That's why just forget about those people who are saying "Shh, this is not the right time."
In my opinion those people who are really scared of being labeled as Islamophobic, they never had the experience to live in a country which those governments have womenphobia. You know, when you are a woman in the Middle East you understand what I'm saying. The government of Iran is scared of us and they have womenphobia. I just created the word.
Ann: [Laughs]
Masih: So now when I see in the west they have Islamophobia it doesn't make any sense to me why they keep silent because we fight with the government of Iran and now I think we have to fight against any kind of label. And be brave condemning any discriminatory laws.
Ann: So on the very first page of your memoir you write "If you let your fear win the darkness can devour you." Which is beautiful and powerful. And I'm wondering as someone whose life has been threatened, who is taking great personal risk to do this work, I'm curious about how you keep fear from winning. How do you make that true in your own life?
(31:40)
Masih: Oh my god, this is a difficult question because sometimes I'm really scared of the -- you know, the darkness, the government, the brutality of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The fear is not something that you can deny it. But the thing is when I was a child -- so we didn't have a bathroom inside the house. We had an outdoor bathroom. During the night it was really difficult. The darkness was just horrible. I had to go out with my little brother. I remember my mom used to tell me that when you see the darkness, when you're scared of something, just open your eyes wider. The darkness will go away. And I believed her and I thought yeah, that helped me a lot. Then I grew up with this magic way of fighting the darkness. When I was getting a shout from the MPs, because I was a parliamentary journalist as well and they expelled me from the parliament, but I remember there was a picture of me standing up with the MP inside the parliament shouting at me. And the picture actually shows that I'm really strong and brave but it was not like that. Because my mom told me open your eyes wider instead of just running away from the MPs I was just standing up. This is the way I grew up.
I think now Iran is the same. The situation of human rights in Iran is like my village house. It's full of darkness. The torture, prison. They're killing people. They're arresting people. People can only win this darkness and the fear if they open their eyes wider. The darkness will go away. But if you're scared then nothing can happen. You will die in your fear. For 40 years we the people of Iran had the fear inside us. But I'm sure that now this is the government of Iran that fears the women, the people of Iran.
Ann: Last question.
Masih: Sure.
(33:55)
Ann: Because obviously women listening to this in the west and in the United States are going to be able to go out and buy your book and read your memoir. But I'm wondering about women within Iran and if they will be able to access your writing on this topic.
Masih: Oh that's a good question, you know? Because the government of Iran expelled me from my country but they couldn't take my country away from me. I remember my mom used to tell me when somebody kicks you out of a room and they lock the door just look for a window. Now social media is my window and I'm sure through social media I'm going to invite the women of Iran. I'm going to talk about my book through social media. I'm going to tell them about my book and my stories every day through social media. This is the only way I can be in Iran, I can talk to people, and I can be in touch with my family and my memories inside Iran.
Ann: Ugh, I love that, and you're making me feel good about social media which I haven't in a while so this is great. [Laughs]
Masih: No! I know that in the west it's totally . . . you know, when I left Iran to study at Oxford University I had a lot of classmates and they were just using the social media for publishing their pictures from a party or showing their shoes, their beautiful dress. And for me my Facebook page was full of stories of those people who got tortured, death, into prison. I was like oh my god, they'll all remove me. They don't want to have my Facebook page because it's just full of sorrow and sad stories. And then I thought oh my god, so one day I'm going to have . . . I mean the social media, I'm going to use social media the way people in the west are using that. You know, just dancing, having parties, and showing the true life. That's always my dream. But still we're fighting and using social media like this. So never blame social media.
(36:05)
Ann: Well hopefully our conversation has inspired a few more people to post fewer party photos and amplify some more of these stories instead because I would love that to be the result. Masih thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Masih: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.
[Interview Ends]
Ann: Okay, so Masih's book The Wind in My Hair: My Fight for Freedom in Modern Iran will be published later this month so you should definitely check it out.
Aminatou: The wind in my hair. I love that.
Ann: I know, it's so good. Thanks for sticking with me through a complex and deep convo today.
Aminatou: Hey listen. Hello from down under. [Laughs] Should've probably opened with that.
Ann: I should've been like uh, are you on vacation? Is it okay that we go heavy today? [Laughs]
Aminatou: So heavy. The heaviest. You have my heart always.
Ann: Aww.
Aminatou: You can find us many places on the Internet, on our website callyourgirlfriend.com, you can download it anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts, or on Apple Podcasts where we would love it if you left us a review. You can email us at callyrgf@gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @callyrgf. You can subscribe to our monthly newsletter The Bleed on the Call Your Girlfriend website. You can even leave us a short and sweet voicemail at 714-681-2943. That's 714-681-CYGF. Our theme song is by Robyn, all original music is composed by Carolyn Pennypacker Riggs, our logos are by Kenesha Sneed, and this podcast is produced by Gina Delvac.
Ann: See you on the Internet several timezones away.